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Umm, No He Doesn’t

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Who doesn’t what? God. He doesn’t love people just as they are. In fact, he loves people too much to leave them just as they are. People just as they are are sinners alienated from God and headed for a lost eternity. A God of love could never just sit back and allow that to happen.

That is why Jesus came and died a cruel death on a cross for our sake, so that we don’t have to remain as we are, but we can become what we were meant to be. Yet we have too many clueless wonders, especially in the Christian camp, who think otherwise.

Thus we have yet another clueless and compromised “Christian” claiming that she is loved by God just as she is – as a lesbian. Yep, we actually have these folks making such sacrilegious and dishonest claims. I have written before about plenty of these Christian celebs and stars who publicly flaunt their sin and effectively tell God that he is a liar.

This time we have Vicky Beeching (who I never heard of before) doing the same. So who is she? One newspaper report says this: She is “35, British star of the American Christian rock scene, one of the most successful artists in US mega-churches and now one of the most sought-after religious commentators in Britain.”

Heaven help us if she is a religious commentator. She is an apostate commentator leading potentially millions of people away from God, away from truth, away from holiness, and away from eternal life. And this article is a long sycophantic and emotive piece gushing all over her.

It is all about poor little Vicky. She has suffered so much because the church teaches that homosexuality is a sin. She has suffered so much because she has had Christians who have dared to tell her the truth about this. The article continues:

We meet twice. On the first occasion, Beeching, normally enlivening Radio 4’s Thought for the Day or any number of Sunday morning TV discussion programmes, sits opposite me in a café in Soho. She pushes a piece of paper in my direction. It is a précis she has written of her background: of growing up in a conservative Christian household in Kent, first in the Pentecostal Church then in the evangelical branch of the Church of England, of going to Oxford to study theology, of the EMI recording contract that sent her to Nashville 12 years ago and launched a successful singer-songwriting career… and then a line that jars and jolts. I turn the piece of paper over and look up to see her smiling nervously.

“I’m gay,” she says, confirming what is written. She has never said this publicly before – a handful of people in her private life know. She has only just told one her closest friends, Katherine, and Katherine’s father, Justin Welby, the Archbishop of Canterbury.

The enormity of the political ramifications of this disclosure scarcely have a second to sink in – a theologian who spends holy days with the Archbishop, whose God-fearing lyrics are sung by millions in America’s Bible Belt, coming out as a lesbian – before I begin to reflect on the implications for her personally.

The article goes on to say she will be “crucified” for coming out. Umm no, not at all. Instead she will be adored, praised and celebrated by millions, just like this clueless newspaper journalist is doing. She will be held up as a brave, courageous, inspiring and tolerant Christian surrounded by intolerant dinosaurs.

So spare us this crucifixion baloney. There is only one person who was crucified that we should be discussing here. It was Jesus Christ, who died on the cross so people like Vicky (and every single other person on the planet) could be saved from their damnable sins and set free to live a new life, a holy life, fully pleasing to God.

Yet all this person can do is whine about her difficulties, and about how she is so happy now to delight in her sinful lifestyle. Of course all she is doing is telling us that she in fact is not a Christian. Atheists and God-haters shake their fists at God and tell him he is wrong, and that they will call the shots and determine what is true and false, right and wrong.

No one who is a genuine Christian could ever do this. It would be a contradiction in terms. A Christian is a sinner who acknowledges that they are sinners, that they deserve the wrath of God, but have availed themselves through faith and repentance of the gracious offer of forgiveness based on the saving work of Christ at Calvary.

No true Christian hangs on to their sin, tries to justify it, and by doing so, calls God a liar, telling him he needs to get with the times. The article goes on and on about poor Vicky. She tried somewhat to change, but it just did not work for her, so obviously she was not meant to change.

Yeah right. So has she struggled and gone through hard times? Sure. But guess what? Every single person on earth struggles and goes through tough times. But humanity breaks down into two camps here: those who agree with God, acknowledge their sin, and seek, by God’s grace and with the help of the indwelling Holy Spirit to see real change take place, no matter how difficult and lengthy a process that might be, and those who don’t.

Vicky is in the latter camp. She tried a bit, it did not seem to work, so instead of agreeing with God and seeking him further for transformation, she puts up the white flag of surrender and says, ‘Yep. I was meant to be homosexual and God just loves me as I am.’

Um no. As I said at the beginning, God loves us far too much to leave us in our sin and degradation. He loves us enough to change us and set us free from our captivity to sin and self. But we have to agree with God first, and allow him to do his work in us, no matter how long and hard that may be. Indeed, sanctification is a life-long process.

So now we have her fully capitulating to carnality, compromise and deception: “What Jesus taught was a radical message of welcome and inclusion and love. I feel certain God loves me just the way I am, and I have a huge sense of calling to communicate that to young people.”

No he did not teach a radical message of welcome and inclusion. He told people to repent and turn from their sin, or face the full wrath of God to come. One simply has to read the gospel accounts without homosexual-tinted glasses on to see this.

Sure, he went out of his way to make those who saw their need as lost sinners feel welcome. He always took the extra step to such people. But his entire message of forgiveness and reconciliation is based on faith and repentance. Those who disagree with God about their sin simply cannot be forgiven.

It would be impossible for a holy and just God to forgive an unrepentant sinner. So does Vicky struggle with same-sex attraction? So what? Is God in the change business or is he not? Plenty of former homosexuals have found liberation and new life in Christ. Many report even having their orientation and disposition changed by God.

Even if the attractions stay, a true Christian recognizes that God has called us to holiness and purity, and a life of celibacy is the only option for the sinner who has agreed with God that this is a sinful condition which keeps us out of the Kingdom.

But the good news is, as Paul says in 1 Corinthians 6:9-11, “such were some of you”. Some of you were homosexuals, or thieves, or adulterers (past tense). But you are no more, thanks to the transforming power of God. Vicky simply gave up on God. She stopped trying, and stopped letting God do his work in her life.

Thankfully God will not give up on her. His arms are still held out to her – and to all sinners. But his love and forgiveness is dependent upon us recognizing our sin, turning from our sin, and embracing his reconciliation through faith and repentance. It does not work any other way.

Consider what she also said: “I just want to help anyone in that situation to not have to go through what I did, to show that instead, you can be yourself.” Being yourself is the last thing we should wish on anyone. Being ourselves means being rebellious sinners at enmity with God headed for hell. We want to be what God wants us to be, which is the exact opposite.

So we all can and should pray for Vicky. I am sure life for her is tough. But it is tough for everybody. And when you now, with a position of power and influence, tell lies to young people about the nature of God and sin, then you are causing tremendous and lasting harm. We can pray that she sees the light, and starts agreeing with God, instead of living in defiance of him and his Word, leading so many people astray.

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  • RCQ_92130

    All Christians are sinners, but can’t be a Christian and be an unrepentant, proud sinner who claims God is wrong. The name “Christ” is there in the word “Christian” for a reason. Follow Christ, not your flesh. Otherwise, might as well join the church-turned-social-club known as the Episcopal ‘Church’, aka the Church of England.

    Oh – wait – that’s where Beeching pretends to be a Christian. What a shock.

  • Michael Hampton

    There are only 6 passages in the Bible that you present as evidence that God hates gay people. And, if you look at the original text and not the current Bible you hit people with, you will find that the word “homosexual” doesn’t appear in it. The word they use refers to older men raping young boys. The modern idea of an adult homosexual relationship wasn’t discussed. Therefore, those 6 passages that you scream about are not actually about an adult homosexual relationship. They are about sexual abuse. Why not study that Bible instead of hitting people on the head with it while you scream about how persecuted you are?

    • RCQ_92130

      1. Bullshirt. You are simply repeating lies from The Gay Times … yet another example of how GayGestapo lies are simply accepted as if true by gays and repeated, repeated, repeated.

      2. Where on earth did you EVER get the crazy idea that God “hates gay people”?????????? God loves ALL humans, and hopes ALL will give up their foul ways and accept His love and Grace. In the end there surely will be another round of “fire and brimstone” on those who refuse … but He gives chance after chance for you to repent and be saved. Hate? Not a part of God.

      • Pilgrim1949

        Ditto.

        Burning with passion for, and exchanging “natural” physical affections from the opposite sex (gee, ya think anatomy might also have some bearing on this — re: “science”? — nah, can’t be that easy) and instead towards the same sex IS roundly condemned by God.

        Lest one knee(or-other)-jerk reflexively whine “judge not!”, kindly reference Jesus’ treatment of the woman caught in adultery (note that the religious leaders caught her “in the act” yet her partner was nowhere to be found for similar punishment, in clear contradiction of the Bible’s explicit instruction). Jesus lovingly tells her to “go and sin no more.” Jesus sort of makes a judgement there, yes? Clearly he has judged her prior conduct to be something “sinful” and which she should henceforth abandon. Wow, what a phlegm-flinging, Bible-quoting hater. (Riiiiiight….)

        Ever since The Fall, mankind has been a bunch of broken vessels — physical, mental, emotional and physical (still-borne) — and the enemy of our souls continually seeks to steal, kill and destroy (as well as twist) any intrinsically good and natural appetite and lead us to seek to satisfy it in illegitimate ways that ultimately lead to our destruction.

        When a train, designed to run on a set of tracks, leaves the rails and self-destructs, scattering broken cars and bodies along the railway, we have yet to hear a news report celebrating how the train finally broke free from its restrictive confines in pursuit of freedom at last. We rightly describe it for what it is — a train wreck.

        • Truth Offends

          We don’t know that “her partner was nowhere to be found for similar punishment.” All we know is that’s something that is not recorded in the Bible.

          • RCQ_92130

            Correct – but one has to wonder just how all the men KNEW this woman was committing adultery.

          • Truth Offends

            The Bible says she was “caught in adultery,” (Jn 8:3) and that the scribes and Pharisees said she was “caught…in the very act.” (Jn 8:4)
            Nothing about the man is recorded in John 8. So, we can’t know (from John 8) that he “was nowhere to be found for similar punishment.”

          • RCQ_92130

            Yes – so how could she have been caught? Set up?

            And would the man not also have been ‘caught’ in the act? Why was the man not also dragged to the place of stoning?

          • Truth Offends

            What makes you believe he wasn’t “also dragged to the place of stoning? We cannot assume he wasn’t simply b/c that’s not recorded.

          • RCQ_92130

            It’s true “not recorded” does not rule out the possibility he was not also there … but Jesus apparently only speaking to the woman seems odd if, indeed, there were two offenders there. And the crowd only apparently wanting to stone the woman seems odd if the man was also there on the ground.

          • Truth Offends

            He may have been taken somewhere else (court, already stoned?). The scribes and Pharisees brought the woman to where Jesus was. Maybe we only know about the woman, or maybe they only brought the woman to Jesus b/c she would invoke sympathy.
            I’m not saying the man was also brought up on charges of adultery. I’m only saying we don’t know. All we know is what is written.

      • Michael Hampton

        Perhaps it was the title of this “article.”

    • http://luvisaverb.net.au/ Sojourner

      For others reading Michael’s interpretation of the biblical view of homosexuality; think and pray earnestly about it.

      • Michael Hampton

        It’s not my interpretation of anything. It is religious scholars and reading the original text in the context in which is was written. There is a terrific documentary called For the Bible Tells Me So that explains it quite clearly if you need more proof.

        • helligusvart

          Most “religious scholars” are boneheads.

          • Michael Hampton

            Again, you can dislike gay people all you want, but don’t try and make the Bible fit your prejudice. I would at least respect you if you stopped blaming it on God.

    • helligusvart

      Blah, blah, blah, yada, yada, yada.

    • thisoldspouse

      “There are only 6 passages in the Bible that you present as evidence that God hates gay people.”

      How many passages would be required to convince you that God disapproves of homosexual behavior. Let me guess – seven?

      • Michael Hampton

        The point to that statement, since you took it out of context, is that you are choosing to persecute one group of what you consider “sinners” and not persecuting all “sinners.”

        Have your grandkids explain to you what hypocrisy means.

    • S_O_T_A

      You assume gay people exist. But God only created male and female. Wake up.

      • Michael Hampton

        I am awake. Denying that something exists doesn’t make it not exist.

        • S_O_T_A

          You actually need to prove that sexual identity can be based on feelings. Given the hardwired nature of men and women, I’d say you have zero chance of that.

        • S_O_T_A

          Furthermore, my original point is that your argument rests on that false assumption. Without any evidence for that assumption, your argument crumbles.

    • Joe Dokes

      “There are only 6 passages in the Bible that you present as evidence that God hates gay people.”

      1. As best I recall w/o checking, it says God considers homosexuality – what is actually done and the desires that lead to it – to be detestable. You add the word “hate” in a sense I am unsure the Bible states.

      2. Homosexuality IS a biblically identified sin. You may not like that fact nor agree with it, but that invariably is what it says. So if you want to preach that it’s not REALLY a sin, then you must do the same with ALL identified sins: adultery, covetousness, gossip, murder, etc. Are you willing to do that to justify homosexuality? Because you can’t have it both ways – either it’s a condemned sin as all the others are, or none of them are actually “sins.” Which will it be?

  • Justin Eiler

    Yup. God loves everybody–except if they’re gay. Then God hates you.

    Nice to know that Fred Phelp’s message has survived him. (/sarcasm)

    • RCQ_92130

      Just because you hate yourself, do not be so foolish as to think God no longer loves you. True – you daily break His heart. But He is not like frail humans and does not respond to evil as do we.

      • Justin Eiler

        First and foremost, you assume that I am gay.

        Secondly, you assume that I hate myself.

        The second is false. The first is none of your business.

        Just keep waving your “God Hates Fags” sign, RCQ. The only difference between you and the folks at Westboro is that they’re honest about their hatred.

        • RCQ_92130

          SIGH

          Again …. for the reading impaired:

          God hates not one of us.

          HOWEVER – this in no way means unrepentant sinners are free from His judgment, which most likely will be awe inspiring.

          • Justin Eiler

            “God hates not one of us.”

            I’m so glad you realize that.

            Pity one cannot say the same about many Christians.

          • RCQ_92130

            He does not hate Christians either.

          • Justin Eiler

            Grammar, RCQ. I am not saying God hates Christians. I am saying that many Christians hate anyone who is not “just like them.”

            You people can’t even act according to your own scriptures. Christians seeking political control, Christians seeking to BE Caesar, Christians seeking to be Princes of this world … all the while forgetting who your Bible says the prince of this world actually is.

            According to your Bible, Lucifer said “I will be like the most high.” You political Christians didn’t even set your eyes that high–instead, you decided to be Satan.

            And how well you fulfill the role.

          • RCQ_92130

            1. Of COURSE I understood what you were <i.trying to say. Geesh.

            2. For a total stranger, you seem to believe you know me so very well. But then, it seems to be in the gay gene to label others, stereotype groups of people who do not agree with The Gay Mantra, and generally be the most odious bigots and bullies on the planet. So I’m not surprised you do so.

            3. Given the absolutely obnoxious and antisocial behavior seen in recent years from the gay community, I think it unwise for a card carrying member of that community to claim some other group is obnoxious and antisocial.

            4. Given gay activists (presumably including you, since you troll this Christian site) appear to HATE all who do not submit to The Gay Mantra. Given this, it seems unseemly to claim Christians hate all who are different than them.

            In short, Pallie Wallie: lay down the hatred, set aside the bullying & bigotry, and remember you are in the most vulnerable of all glass houses … and as such are not all that wise to be throwing the countless stones you have been heaving about.

          • Justin Eiler

            1. Oh, so you understand … but feel free to misconstrue what is said anyway. Niiiice.

            1a. Got to be careful with the code. It can be tricky.

            2. You forget how much of your purported worldview is available via your profile and posting history.

            2b. Again, you make the assumption (or insinuation) that I am gay. As I mentioned before, whether or not I am is none of your business.

            3. There’s plenty of obnoxiousness on both sides. The one difference is that gays are not trying to make you conform to their orientation.

            3a. The other major difference is that gays aren’t killing Christians. Pity Christians cannot claim the same innocence of killing gays.

            4. Yes, I’m trolling. But I’m also speaking the facts. Your like or dislike is entirely immaterial.

            4a. Think of trolling as any other form of fishing. I simply provide the bait, You’re the one who decides whether or not to rise to that bait.

            4b. I have no “HATE” for Christians. I have no “HATE” for Christians who insist that homosexuality is a “choice,” or that acting on their orientation is a “sin.” I _do_ have a strong despite for those who attempt to use their religion–whatever their religion may happen to be–as a bludgeon against others. I despise the Taliban. I despise Al Qaida. And I despise people who are attempting to impose a kinder, gentler jihad in America against non-Christians. dissenting Christians. gays, and other classes of people in the name of their “God.” Despite is … similar, but not identical, to hatred–but discussing such distinctions is beyond the scope of this forum.

            As such, I think I’ll keep throwing stones. I thank you, nonetheless, for your advice to the contrary–I shall give it all the attention I give your views on several other topics brought up in this discussion.. :)

          • RCQ_92130

            1. Get a life. Same with 1a

            2. So? Have we met? Are we related? You are clueless but feel free to spew. You are a hater and a bigot.

            2a. You are gay. I do not care if you give me ‘permission’ to know this. You are gay (NOT meaning ‘happy’, as that is obviously NOT the case)

            3. Gays are not demanding conformance??? Bwaaa ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha

            3a. Oh – Christians are now KILLING homosexuals??? What – such as the many, many fake martyrs gays have foisted (i.e., Matty Sheppard)? The primary anti-gay violence COMES FROM OTHER GAYS, since gays are prone to violence, not normal people (who are not consumed with anger)

            “3a” is the last sub-response I will address. If you cannot parse your thoughts into straightforward concepts then they are not worthy of a response.

            4. You are spewing lies, damned lies, nothing but lies. At least muster a smidgen of honesty, Francine!

            STONES: I care not if you continue to throw stones (i.e., continue your hatred, bullying and bigotry). Your demise is your business, not mine. But stand ready for me to oppose your lies. because i will!

          • Justin Eiler

            “Get a life.”

            I have one. I’m quite satisfied with it. Occasionally, as a hobby, I use my time to expose ridiculous arguments as the foolishness that they are.

            Such as yours here.

            ” You are gay.”

            So? Have we met? Are we related? You are clueless but feel free to spew.

            Or is it OK for you to make such arguments, but not OK for others to use them against you?

            “Gays are not demanding conformance?”

            Point me out one gay person who seriously proposes that heterosexuals should be forced to act homosexually. Point me out one example of laws that require heterosexuals to engage in gay marriage–even without the sex angle.

            Just one example will suffice.

          • RCQ_92130

            What you have is not a life; it’s a sad and morose parody. The only reason you think you actually have a life is because you do not know what it means to actually have one. Oh well.

            You are gay. not my problem. Deal with it.

            Example: Wayne Beson, who assassinates any individual who tries to leave the sad, bleak and self hating life of homosexuality behind.

            Moreover, homosexual activists like you demand others ACCEPT their behavior; ACCEPT the efforts to indoctrinate innocent children; ACCEPT the legal assault on people who have down nothing other than not submit. it’s despicable, obnoxious, pathological, and hate filled.

            like you.

          • Justin Eiler

            “What you have is not a life; it’s a sad and morose parody.”

            Oh, this gets more and more amusing, especially in light of your earlier insistence that I couldn’t possibly know anything about you because I’d never met you … but here you are, making wild speculations about everything from my sexual orientation to my emotional well-being.

            “You are gay”

            As I said, my orientation is none of your business … unless you’re asking me out on a date, in which case, I must respectfully decline.

            ” Wayne Beson, who assassinates”

            And _how_ many people has he killed? You accuse him of assassinations, but I’ll even accept verifiable cases of negligent homicide.

            How many? Zero?

            Yet another lie from a professed Christian.

            Because lies are all you people have.

          • RCQ_92130

            1. You are gay. Deal with it. not my problem.
            2. Homosexuals thinking their life is a real life is like abused children thinking their (abused) childhood is ‘normal’. It’s all you know. Your problem, not mine.
            3. Ask your 3rd grade teacher (when school resumes) the OTHER meanings of ‘assassinate’. Or not. Your ignorance is your problem, not mine.
            4. Why is it homosexual activists, when told they are liars, so often simply repeat the same thing at others (this applies to any and all critiques)? Does the gay gene also destroy all original thought?

            In short: your sad and morose existence is none of my concern. Live the remainder of your life this way; I care not.

          • Justin Eiler

            “You are gay.”

            Did your God tell you that? Seems about as reliable as the rest of your arguments.

            All you have for responses are insults, false statements, and the usual twaddle of hatred. Were I gay, I would gladly and proudly claim the insults you fling–just as I have gladly and proudly accepted and claimed the insults I’ve received from the KKK and similar groups. Your tactics are the same as theirs … up to and including that your God told you to spew the falsehoods you’re spewing.

            “OTHER meanings of ‘assassinate'”

            I don’t have to appeal to dictionary tricks to point to Christians who kill gays. Unlike you, I can accurately state that in the relation between Christians and gays, Christians are NOT the victims.

            How many gays have been killed because your Bible told you Christians so?

            And I ask again, how many Christians have been killed by gays? Not one.

            ” Live the remainder of your life this way; I care not.”

            Luke 10:30-32:In reply Jesus said: “A
            man was going down from Jerusalem to Jericho, when he was attacked by robbers. They stripped him of his clothes, beat him and went away, leaving him half dead. A priest happened to be going down the same road, and when he saw the man, he passed by on the other side. So too, a Levite, when he came to the place and saw him, passed by on the other side.

            So are you the priest, or the Levite? They didn’t care either.

            If you’re an example of a Christian … I’ll be quite content to be out here, with the Samaritans.

          • RCQ_92130

            You are gay. It was your choice. Deal with the mess you have made of your life. I do not care.

          • Justin Eiler

            “You are gay.”

            Keep telling yourself that.

            “I do not care.”

            I already know that, RCQ. NONE of you Christians do, despite your false claims to the contrary.

          • RCQ_92130

            Lest you forget … I do not care.

          • Justin Eiler

            Trust me, RCQ–I will never forget that.

            And lest YOU forget–the Levite and the priest didn’t care either. Did they enter the Kingdom of Heaven?

          • RCQ_92130

            Ah, but you fail to distinguish the man attacked in Luke 10 from yourself. You see, that man did not go out of his way to be offensive, distasteful, and hate filled. He actually WAS an innocent victim. Compare that with yourself, who rightfully seeks to generate dislike and to cause everyone to not care.

            I do not.

          • Justin Eiler

            “Ah, but you fail to distinguish the man attacked in Luke 10 from yourself.”

            Again, you fail. I do not compare myself to the victim of the robbery. I compare myself to the Samaritan.

            Because I do care.

            I care for those who have been victimized by the “robbers”, brought low by things beyond their control–or even brought down by their own faults. I care for those who have been rejected by the good and the great.

            I even care for the Levites and the Priests who have rejected them.

            The Jesus you supposedly worship has words for people like you. Words like “whitewashed sepulchers” and “generation of vipers.” You worship your own holiness, holding yourself as better than those who are hurt, or broken.

            Woe unto you, Scribes and Pharisees–hypocrites. You tell God how righteous you are, and hold your head high because you are not a sinner–not like those gay people over there.

            You have forgotten even the most basic lessons that Jesus taught. Matt. 5:43-48

            43 Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy.
            44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
            45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.
            46 For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same?
            47 And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so?
            48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

            Love your enemy. Your response? “I don’t care.”

            You have already condemned yourself.

          • RCQ_92130

            Cheers. Now scram.

          • Justin Eiler

            I don’t believe I shall, RCQ. I’m rather enjoying myself.

          • helligusvart

            It does no good to continue responding to people like ol’ Justin. He’s going to twist everything you say completely out of all recognition. He has to, because otherwise he would have to come face to face with his sin.

          • helligusvart

            RCQ_92130 was right…you do hate yourself.

          • Justin Eiler

            What amuses me so much is that both you and RCQ make the same assumptions, for the same reasons,,and demonstrate the same ignorance.

            Again, I have to ask–did your God tell you I “hate myself,” or that I’m “homosexual”?

          • helligusvart

            It’s obvious.

          • Justin Eiler

            Oh, is it now? Why is that? Because no straight person could possibly think that civil rights for gays are important? Because no person could possibly be offended by injustice that does not directly affect him or her?

          • Jeanette Victoria

            Correcting error is not hate HTH

          • Justin Eiler

            I’m glad that you recognize that I’m not engaging in hate. HAND.

    • helligusvart

      Happy little post, eh?

    • Joe Dokes

      You have it exactly backward. Insisting one can enjoy what God has called sin AND have Christ as Savior is not only foolish and self-contradictory but is evidence that one actually despises God and has no real desire to obey Him, whatever his (or her) professions to the contrary. Not saying that’s you…just pointing out you’re looking at the wrong end of the problem.

      • Justin Eiler

        No, Joe–you completely and utterly fail to understand what I’m talking about.

        I will gladly stipulate that, for a Biblical literalist, homosexuality is impossible to reconcile with the moral claims of the Bible. I’m 100% aware of that–even though, as a non-Christian, I’m not particularly concerned with Biblical moral standards except in an academic sense.

        At the same time, a Biblical literalist should realize that the very act of seeking political power places them in the position of being “of the world,” rather than simply “in the world.”

        Purely based on secular law, this view is also problematic. I want you to imagine the situation if we had a large Jewish population in the US. What would happen if they were to seek enough political power to institute the concept of the Jewish Sabbath into secular law as a general prohibition? Businesses would be required to close Friday at sundown.

        What would that do to the rights of non-Jews here in the US?

        Of course, the children of Israel here in the States are far more sensible than than. They adhere to the Sabbath because they _choose_ to follow their understanding of what God wants. They do not seek to impose that understanding on others.

        Why do you?

        • Joe Dokes

          As a non-Christian I’m almost puzzled what dog you think you have a right to in this particular fight – whatever, that’s your right – but I am not one of those Christians who seek political power and, in fact, am more opposed to them than you are, and for the right reasons. So you argument isn’t with me on that point.

          • Justin Eiler

            “If you’re a non-Christian I’m almost puzzled what dog you think you have a right to in this particular fight”

            Because this particular fight is part of a larger battle for political power between those who abide by the Constitution as it was _actually_ written, and those who follow a Dominionist or Bartonesque interpretation of history.

            Because I have family members who are directly affected by the issue of marriage equality.

            Because some of the more extreme “Christians” who would deny marriage equality would also deny equal rights for non-Christians. And because even if people like you do not support seeking political power, unless you are separate from the current Church community, the odds are very good that you are a fellow-traveler with those who do–though you may not be aware of that.

            And mostly, because I do not have to be directly affected by an injustice to fight against that injustice.

            “…and, in fact, am more opposed to them than you are”

            As you do not know my level of opposition, you cannot make that comparison with any reference to accuracy. If you were to simply claim that you are opposed to Dominionism and its various off-shoots, I would have accepted that as sufficient.

          • Joe Dokes

            I need not justify myself to you, nor you to me, but be assured that I could not more strenuously oppose dominionism, reconstructionism,replacement theology, “retaking America for Christ” and all of their adjuncts for the best possible reason — they are unbiblical. They (some aspects of them, at least) subtly deny the Gospel of the grace of God and, in so doing, are helping to lay the groundwork for the one world government/economy/religion that will bring forth the Antichrist…the very thing many of their adherents believe they’re working to pevent, if they believe in it at all.

  • Azima Khan

    “men have gone to war and cut each other’s throats because they couldn’t
    agree as to what was to become of them after their throats were cut”

    Someone else believes in a slightly different version of God than you do, no need to go to war with them.

  • Beth St George

    From one proud Christian lesbian to another: I love you and am proud of you. Vicky… You are and will continue to be an inspiration to other LGBT Christians, whether open or closeted. Hugs!

    • RCQ_92130

      Do you understand the word “Christian” means to follow Christ – not your own notions of right/wrong. “Following Christ” means, first and foremost, being in His Word (i.e., the bible) …. and not some silly progressive rendition designed to better adhere with the ‘modern world’ and it’s notions of right/wrong.

      If you do, then willfully and consciously and intentionally sinning – of which there is no doubt homosexuality is – means you have decided NOT to follow Christ, but your own desires. In that case it is a fallacy to say you are “Christian”, and going to a social club such as the Episcopal Church {sic} does not change that.

      I say this only because silence would be, in a sense, agreement … and causing you to stumble.

      • Beth St George

        Christ neither spoke about nor condemned homosexuality. Since, he didn’t, that means you don’t get to either.

        • RCQ_92130

          This is SUCH an absurd (though oft used) excuse!

          1. We are clearly told most of what Jesus taught was not recorded. You cannot say Jesus did not speak out against homosexuality.

          2, Jesus specifically stated ALL Scripture is from God. To deny the non-red-letter words is to call Him a liar.

          You cherry pick for obvious reasons – obvious to me, to everyone else, to you, and to God. I fail to see how that brings any comfort at all to you.

          • Beth St George

            Please provide the exact book, chapter, and verse where Jesus specially condemns homosexuals.

          • RCQ_92130

            Please – try again to read what I just wrote to you. Apparently, what you thought I wrote is night-and-day unrelated to what I actually wrote.

          • Beth St George

            What you wrote added nothing to the conversation. The only person who spoke for God, in the New Testament was Christ. Since he never spoke on the matter, then neither did God… With the birth of Jesus, a new covenant with man was made, with God. Read Jeremiah 31:21-34. If you are adhering to the original covenant, with God, then you are not Christian….

          • RCQ_92130

            Let’s start with where we agree: Anyone who believes he/she can earn they way to heaven by adhering to “Old Testament” Law is rejecting Christ. This was the reproach by Paul, of Peter, when Paul returned to Jerusalem. On this we agree.

            But you are mistaken that God ‘changed His mind’ and the Old Testament is no longer valid. Jesus specifically stated he came not to replace the Law but to fulfill it. Throughout his teaching He quoted from and referred to Scripture – Old Testament Scripture. Not only did Jesus NOT say we should forget about Scripture before His arrival … He specifically instructed it remained in full force and effect. What had changed was our way to salvation – through Christ alone, not by works. The Law had not changed.

            So, you refusing to accept The Law is both in error and a rejection of Christ’s specific instructions.

          • Beth St George

            So you are rejecting the Books of Jeremiah, Hebrews, Luke, 1st Corinthians, John, Romans, which all speak directly to the birth of the Messiah? Are you really saying that Jesus wasn’t the Messiah, since he didn’t fulfill the prophecy of a new covenant with man? You had better re-read Jeremiah and determine if you are truly a Christian or an evangelical (btw, evangelicals aren’t Christians).

          • RCQ_92130

            Where on earth do you get these things? No to all your silly questions.

            The Old Testament is all about pointing to Christ. The New Testament is all about what happened once He arrived (and prophesy about His second coming). God does not change – same yesterday, today and tomorrow. If you reject either you are rejecting His Word.

            You appear to reject the Old Testament (perhaps because you do not like some of what it says).

          • Beth St George

            The Old Testament is not a religious text, within the Christian Faith. It became a historical text, upon the birth of the Messiah. Why do you insist on rejecting the teaching and the books of you own alleged faith? Don’t answer, I already know the answer. It is because you are an evangelical, which means you pick what to adhere to, which to interpret, which is literal, and which to ignore… That is not true faith, is is a corruption of God’s word… I will pray in the hope that you will see the light and come back into God’s grace…

          • RCQ_92130

            Again ~~~ are you daft??? I reject NOTHING in the Bible. That is YOUR M.O., not mine.

          • Beth St George

            Why are you rejecting the prophecy of the birth of the Messiah and his purpose?

          • RCQ_92130

            So, when you can’t formulate an argument you just ‘say stuff’, huh?

            Here, I’ll do so also:

            WHY DO YOU HATE GOD SO MUCH?

          • Beth St George

            As a point of fact, I Iove god and his message. I don’t hate evangelicals such as yourself. However, I am distressed how you have accepted this bastardization of Christianity, called evangelicalism.

            Satan is the originator of your evangelical quasi-faith. That is the only explanation of how, you only adhere to selected aspects of God love and overall message.

            You will be in my prayers.

          • RCQ_92130

            Your Daddy creeping into your room when you were 8 and raping you was, without a doubt, horrible. But hating God for what your Daddy did is just wrong. Stop hating God.

          • Beth St George

            You are truly a vile and repehensible person. While we disagree on Christianity and how we worship, what gives you license to make such a hateful comment? That comment should certainly give you pause to examine your faith or lack thereof. Just where within the confines of any faith, is such a comment permitted?

          • RCQ_92130

            Yes, and your made up claims are innocent. Grow up. Expect responses on the level YOU set – in this case, quite low.

          • Beth St George

            Made up claims? You comment proves that you are not Christian. You are full of hate and refuse to love all God’s children, as he commands. I will speak to my pastor, upon my return home. All I can do is pray for you and hope that God will forgive you and your treapasses against him.

          • RCQ_92130

            It’s simple, Ms. St. George. Act like an adult in yuor conversation and you will be treated as if one. Act like yuo did and you will continue to receive, in response, comments in kind.

            But since you persist, I will also.

            Every word you utter (and your behavior) proves conclusively you hate God and reject Jesus. Followers of Satan, such as you, hiding behind distortions of the Lord’s Word are especially cunning, as they use their deceptions to destroy the relationship others have with the Lord (and thus their salvation).

            Matthew 18:6-9 “But whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to have a great millstone fastened around his neck and to be drowned in the depth of the sea. “Woe to the world for temptations to sin! For it is necessary that temptations come, but woe to the one by whom the temptation comes! And if your hand or your foot causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life crippled or lame than with two hands or two feet to be thrown into the eternal fire. And if your eye causes you to sin, tear it out and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life with one eye than with two eyes to be thrown into the hell of fire.”

          • Beth St George

            You have impugned the character of my father and personally insulted me. Any moral high grounds and claims to Christianity, you may have had, have been dispatched with.

            You have failed embrace the word of God, in its entirety and the word is satan has filled those voids, in your soul.

            For the sake of your soul, embrace Jesus as your lord and savior and accept him as your Messiah, as foretold in Jerimiah 31:31-34. Ignore the call of Satan and do as the Christian God commands before your eternal soul burns in the pits of hell.

          • RCQ_92130

            You reject Jesus and hate God.

            Get behind me, satan!

          • tb03

            Beth, I want to commend you for handling this attack with such poise and intelligence. I doubt anything will come of it, but I flagged RCQ for his vulgar comments.

          • tb03

            This comment was disgusting. Not only are your remarks self-righteous, presumptuous, factually inaccurate, and cruel, but they completely contradict basic human decency.

          • Andrew K.

            A new covenant where “the law will be written on their hearts.”

            Which law is that?

            If the law isn’t written on your hearts, then you are not in the new covenant, and you are not a Christian.

          • Jeanette Victoria

            So you are being willfully ignorant of the Blessed Trinity; Christ is also God who gave us Leviticus.

            Sound bites and slogans does not make for sound Biblical exegesis

          • Beth St George

            Jesus spoke for God, because he is God. You are not God and thus can’t not speak for him….

          • Jeanette Victoria

            The statement doesn’t address what I wrote it’s just a silly ad hominem

          • Beth St George

            Of course I wasn’t paying attention to what you wrote. You are an evangelical who picks and chooses, which parts of the Bible to abide by, which to interpret and which to ignore. Fact is that Christ never spoke about Homosexuality. Get over it.

          • RCQ_92130

            Such a rabid bigot! Labeling groups of people and despising them because they believe differently than your satan-inspired mantra.

          • http://iamhis-lyn.blogspot.com/ bern

            Fact is, Christ DID speak out against homosexuality, in Matthew 15:19, ‘For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies: Mat 15:20 These are the things which defile a man’… ‘Fornication’ – porneia – Thayer Definition:1) illicit sexual intercourse 1a) adultery, fornication, homosexuality, lesbianism, intercourse with animals etc. Christ states that sexual immorality of any kind outside marriage of one man and one woman defiles, or makes unclean. What happens to those who defile themselves? Rev. 21:27 ‘And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb’s book of life.’

            Marriage was instituted by God in Genesis 2:24, “Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh.” There is a stern warning found in Hebrews 13:4 concerning all sexual immorality, ‘ Marriage is honourable in all, and the bed undefiled: but whoremongers and adulterers God will judge.’ Since we already have marriage defined by God in Genesis 2:24, it is wrong and sinful to think homosexual marriage is honored by a thrice-holy God.

            There is hope for the homosexual, the finished work of Christ is sufficient to atone for all sin. The regenerating work and power of God the Spirit transforms sinners {see John 3}, causing them to flee from their sins, including homosexuality. Christ did not die so we could continue deliberately sinning against Him, repent and forsake your sins Beth St. George. What you state is not found in the Bible, your beliefs come from your own understanding and not from God. I once lived a lesbian lifestyle, by God’s grace and power I have been set free. Turn from sin, cry out for His grace and mercy…or you will perish in your sins.

          • New Centurion

            First off Beth, I can’t imagine what you are going through, having said that however, your logic is faulty and amounts to “If Jesus didn’t “specifically” condemn homosexuality (chapter and verse) we can do it. This would mean that incest or viewing porn or having sex with animals or pedophilia is okay and we know it is not.
            We believe that the whole of scripture was written by the Holy Spirit (the third person in the Trinity) through men. Jesus Himself said the books of Moses, the Prophets and the Psalms were about Him. Passages in those books condemn homosexuality, moreover, there are passages in the epistles written by the apostles (who were taught by Jesus) that condemn homosexuality. Remember, Jesus told the apostles that He would send the Holy Spirit to remind them of all He taught. So yes the biblical prohibition on this behavior is legitmate.
            I understand that you are struggling with this, sexual desires are very strong, people want to justify their behaivor, we all are fallen, we all struggle with sin, however I know in your heart of hearts, that you know this lifestyle is wrong. I beg you Beth, to turn to Christ and Him crucified and repent. Jesus is our Advocate and our Redeemer. He is waiting for you. I will remember you in my prayers.

        • Jeanette Victoria

          Christ has in fact has made explicitly clear the marital bed is between one man and one woman

          • Beth St George

            Then please direct me to the exact book, chapter, and verse, where he forbade same-sex marriage and members of the LBGT community.

          • Truth Offends

            Is it your belief that Christians should obey only those things that are written in red?

          • Jeanette Victoria

            Matthew 15, Christ says all sexual acts committed outside of marriage defile a human being.

            Matthew 19 Christ says marriage as God intended it is the union of one man and one woman for life.

            Christ also came to fulfill the law not abolish it. The law in the Torah is explicitly clear homosexual acts are a abomination

          • Beth St George

            Matthew 15, applies to all, whether gay, bi, or straight.

            In Matthew 19, Christ don’t not prohibit same-sex marriage…

            Still waiting… Just were does Jesus admonish members of the LGBT community and threaten them with Hell? Also, where does Jesus say that two people can not be joined in the bonds of love, if they are are same-sex couple?

            The birth of the Messiah was a new covenant with God, there there to reinforce the old… Read Jeremiah 31:31-34… Are you saying that Jesus wasn’t the Messiah?

            If you want to go the Abomination route, then you need to learn your vocabulary. An Abomination is a Ritual sin, not a Moral sin…

          • S_O_T_A

            Defining marriage as male and female excludes all other combinations. The End.

    • Jeanette Victoria

      You are clearly NOT a Christian but just just another wolf in sheep clothing calling evil good. Please repent

      • Beth St George

        Repent for what?

        • RCQ_92130

          1. For your own everlasting
          2. For leading others away from Christ

          • Jeanette Victoria

            Amen! And pray for the poor soul.

  • Joe Dokes

    Good post.

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