Pompeii-291

American Depravity: Are we a Modern Day Pompeii?

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Mat Staver, Founder and Chairman of Liberty Counsel and Dean of Liberty University School of Law spoke on Saturday, along with an all star lineup of Christian leaders from across the nation, at the “Celebrate America” event in Washington D.C. Staver’s powerful presentation was titled, Living in the Shade of Vesuvius.

Thousands were in attendance at DAR Constitution Hall for this clarion call to spiritual and political revival. The goal behind the event was to “commemorate the Declaration of Independence and what the Constitution of the United States has meant to this land. We will celebrate the heritage of America and our Founding Fathers,” explained event organizers in advance, “who acknowledged ‘firm reliance on the protection of divine Providence.’ We will remember The Great Spiritual Awakenings of this land, the impact of which they made, and The Great Awakening that is soon to come.”

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Mat Staver

Mr. Staver drew a chilling parallel between the destruction that befell ancient Pompeii as that pagan civilization spiraled into utter depravity. Regrettably, and amid America’s ongoing abortion holocaust and our nations celebration of homosexual mock “marriage” and other forms of sexual immorality, Staver warned that, unless America repents as a nation and returns to the Judeo-Christian principles of her founding, we too may face a similar fate.

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  • Ray – Jesus is the Son of God.

    There is only one road to heaven, all other roads lead to hell.

    http://www.chick.com/the_story

  • JPT

    First, this is not the United States of Christian Supremacy; freedom of thought subsumes freedom of religion.

    Threatening divine destruction is nothing more than evangelical terrorism. (See Robertson and Falwell’s Katrina pronouncements)

    You can’t even shed your own charlatans; why should we look to you for wisdom? (See: The Great Disappointment)

  • Norm

    I’ve been to Pompeii numerous times and it was decadent and publicly so. Pornographic “artwork” in many places. I wonder what their pride parades were like…and in answer to JPT, this is and always will be a nation founded on Christian principles. The declaration of independence and the bill of rights and the constitution all drew on sermons heavily for their inspiration and wordage. Rail against it if you must but this IS a Christian nation sir.

    • JPT

      On which Christian principles was the United States of America founded? Christianity holds no copyright on character and morality.

      • Norm

        Hello JPT and QuestionsEverything:
        Most of the sermons were from the mid to early 1700′s. The actual authors I will find for you two and give you some references. Another book which you may find interesting was written by Thomas Paine. (common sense) he was a very close friend of Jefferson and the historical investigation gives great illumination to our founding documents. Of course, a lot of this has been eradicated by our public education system for one reason or another. Will get back to you on the sermons. Thanks for the interest!

        • QuestionsEverything

          Thomas Paine is not a good example if you are trying to make your case of, “The declaration of independence and the bill of rights and the constitution all drew on sermons heavily for their inspiration and wordage.”

          I do not believe in the creed professed by the Jewish Church, by the Roman Church, by the Greek Church, by the Turkish Church, by the Protestant Church, nor by any Church that I know of. My own mind is my own Church. – Thomas Paine

          As to the book called the Bible, it is blasphemy to call it the Word of God. It is a book of lies and contradictions, and a history of bad times and bad men. There are but a few good characters in the whole book. – Thomas Paine

          “Most of the sermons were from the mid to early 1700′s. The actual authors I will find for you two and give you some references.”
          – Please also provide the evidence that Jefferson and Madison used these as their inspiration.

    • QuestionsEverything

      Can you name or list any of these sermons that the Declaration of Independence, the Constitution and the Bill of Rights derived their specific inspiration and verbiage? How about any founding principles that are specific to only Christianity?

      • John Hutchinson

        There are a lot of Christian worldview presuppositions that underlie the Constitution and Bill of Rights. Some of those presuppositions were commandeered by the more secular minded in that age and place under naturalist foundations. Nevertheless, they still derived from Scriptures, even some other civilizations also had adopted (because they right).

        Checks and balances government is a contrivance that is based on the utter depravity of mankind. Now on the liberal side, (i.e. Jefferson), they would suggest that suggest evil was due to lack of knowledge. But the majority of the founders and the populace who ratified the Constitution, were imbibed in that more pessimistic view of mankind that made checks and balances a deemed necessity. The Calvinist Swiss practiced this concept even more radically 200 years prior. Even Machiavelli (Discourses on Livy), which many of the Founders cited, held this sinful nature of mankind view in his attempts to reconstruct republican government.

        Equality before the law is distinctly Mosaic. The Code of Hammurabi, which many have said preceded Moses, does not actually practice total legal equality, For a lower class person to take out the eye of noblemen would result in a greater punishment than its opposite. The code is available on the web free.

        Separation of state and church, which is not in the constitution but is the judicial prism by which the 1st Amendment is implemented, derives from Baptist Governor of Rhode Island, Roger Williams in the 1640s.

        “Law is King” (Lex is Rex) is from Puritan Samuel Rutherford (mid-17th Century), which derives from the principles of Mosaic Law as well as the Magna Carta, which alludes to the fact that God is not above His own law that He prescribed.

        Inalienable rights comes from (render to Caesar what is Caesar’s and to God what is God’s), although one could also argue it on natural law grounds (natural law has both a Stoic and Pauline origination). This differs from the Enlightenment liberal (Rousseau – The Social Contract) postulation that it is the civic state that gives rights to humanity.

        I don’t deny that there are many non-Christian concepts in the Constitutions. Montesquieu’s “Spirit of the Laws” certainly shines through. But let’s not make obtuse carte blanche statements either way.

        • QuestionsEverything

          I made no “carte blanche” statements; I asked the OP 2 questions, which have yet to be answered fully. These presuppositions that you have listed are not specific to only Christianity, as they can also be found in societies that pre-date Christianity.

          True equality did not exist in the early foundations of this nation, and can hardly be said to be derived from the Mosaic law. As you mentioned, the Hammurabi Code is the basis of lex talionis and pre-dates the Mosaic law. The Hammurabi Code is also the basis of the ethic of reciprocity.

          Roger Williams’ idea of the separation of Church and State does derive from any Christian principle, it derives from the abhorrent abuse that he witnessed in the colonies, mainly by the Puritans.

          Inalienable rights are simply those that cannot be taken away or surrendered; these did not derive the Bible’s story about whether or not it was lawful for the Jews to pay taxes to Caesar.

  • John Lofton

    And no example of our decadence has been more glaring than those “Christians” who entered politics with no Biblical plan to attempt to give us Godly government. They seem to have forgotten that Jesus was not a Republican or a “conservative.”

    John Lofton, Recovering Republican
    Dir., The God And Government Project
    JLof@aol.com
    http://christiannews.net/2013/09/24/taking-back-city-hall-christians-urged-to-speak-up-at-city-council-meetings-on-duty-to-obey-god/

  • QuestionsEverything

    Norm,

    Again, Locke, Blackstone and Rutherford did not provide any sermons that Jefferson or Madison relied upon when writing the Declaration of Independence or the Constitution and Bill of Rights.

    You are correct about Jefferson’s use of Locke when writing the DOI; he also most likely relied upon Karnes and George Mason. Madison relied heavily upon Montesquieu when he wrote the Federalist Papers, and his basis for the separation of powers.

    In 1814, Jefferson wrote a letter to Dr. Thomas Cooper refuting Blackstone’s assertion that the Common Law was based upon Christianity –

    For we know that the common law is that system of law which was introduced by the Saxons on their settlement in England, and altered from time to time by proper legislative authority from that time to the date of Magna Charta, which terminates the period of the common law, or lex non scripta, and commences that of the statute law, or Lex Scripta. This settlement took place about the middle of the fifth century. But Christianity was not introduced till the seventh century; the conversion of the first christian king of the Heptarchy having taken place about the year 598, and that of the last about 686. Here, then, was a space of two hundred years, during which the common law was in existence, and Christianity no part of it.

    So, do you have any specific sources showing that Jefferson and Madison, “drew on sermons heavily for their inspiration and wordage”?

    You have also not offered any evidence of the specific principles that our nation was founded on that can only be found in Christianity, as per you assertion – “this is and always will be a nation founded on Christian principles”

    • Norm

      Hello Questions:
      I am curious before I get in any deeper with my research…which direction are you coming from in this discussion sir? Are you arguing for the commonly held diest stance or are you just arguing for the sake of arguing and questioning everything? Or are you trying to convince me that this blessed nation is founded upon nothing but a few good sounding ideas? As Job once said to his four friends ..”Oh that wisdom will pass from the earth when you perish” (paraphrase there) I am obviously not the scholar that you are, but I am a man of strong Christian faith..I just want to know whom I am dialoguing with and the reason therefore.
      thanks!

      • QuestionsEverything

        I am not arguing that the Founding Fathers were deists; I am quite aware that many of them were religious and some were even Christians. I also know that just belonging to a certain church does not make you a Christian.

        I am only questioning the validity of your statements that, “this is and always will be a nation founded on Christian principles” and “The declaration of independence and the bill of rights and the constitution all drew on sermons heavily for their inspiration and wordage.” Statements like these get made all the time by people who have no evidence to back them up; basically offering up their personal opinions as stated facts.

        • Norm

          Ok, will find some more info on the sermon statement. I was going on some historical DVD’s I was viewing with my home schooled son. Will watch them again and take notes! Agreed, to be a forerunner for the risen Christ is one thing, to belong to a Christian club indeed doesn’t make you anything but perhaps someone who does good things now and then and presents themselves as possessors of the get out of hell free card. Pray for them, intercede for the American church to “catch fire” and become the holy ones they have been called to be. (as have all of us). More later….

    • John Hutchinson

      You are being disingenuous here. Madison was educated under Witherspoon at a Presbyterian university (Princeton) when it was Christian. The culture was infused with various influences; a prominent one, the 3rd wing of Reformation Christianity. Indeed, the Revolution was partially a culture/civil war between the third wing and the 1st/2nd wing (a.k.a. Anglican church, which even Anglican historians acknowledge). Please don’t start going sophistically and deceitfully technical here by saying that the Founders did not cite a particular religious figure. The ideas they adopted derived from the Christian infused culture or from colonial practices which were instituted from Christian understandings.

      Locke gives homage to a 16th cleric (whose name I cannot recall) in his prologue to the Two Treatises. Just because Jefferson refutes Blackstone’s assertion doesn’t make Jefferson right. I actually think that Madison is superior in mind although not as President than Jefferson. It is only because Jefferson is a hero of the liberal and left that Jefferson is exalted.

      • QuestionsEverything

        I’m not being disingenuous at all. The OP mentioned that, “The declaration of independence and the bill of rights and the constitution all drew on sermons heavily for their inspiration and wordage.”, but has yet to provide evidence of one sermon that was used, or evidence of Jefferson or Madison were inspired by these sermons.

        “Just because Jefferson refutes Blackstone’s assertion doesn’t make Jefferson right.”

        When you consider that Jefferson refers to the Common Law as the law passed down through the Saxons, and that the Saxons existed in England before Christianity was a part of their culture, then Jefferson is correct in saying that, “Here, then, was a space of two hundred years, during which the common law was in existence, and Christianity no part of it.”

        • John Hutchinson

          I was not addressing OP’s comments and therefore if your comments were regarding drawing on sermons etc, I cannot make comment.
          However, I would argue this from another tack. Could you imagine the Constitution, written as it was, without the existence of an underlying Judeo-Christian ethos? You might have a rather intellectually inconsistent resurrection of Roman republicanism at best. But liberty of conscience was a very strong aspect of the revolution (especially as it pertains to coercive tithes and attendance to the Episcopalian Church in Virginia), which was not only an issue with the Deists but also with the Baptists etc.
          And Liberty of Conscience derives straight from Scriptures, and was particularly promulgated by Luther (as well as soul competency, which the Americans secularized to reference the democratic man’s capacity to judge all things, to the consternation of European aristocrats who visited).
          It is true that the Persians, Hellenistic Empire and Roman Empire allowed a pluralistic polytheism. But there is really no intellectual heritage regarding that principle. It really starts at a society wide level with the Reformation against the Catholic hegemony, whose insistence on ideological conformity for the sake of sociopolitical unity and strength really dates back to Theodosius in the 380-390s.
          And I would be the first to adamant, with much anger at my colleagues, that Christendom since the Reformation has not exactly been an honest and faithful practitioner of the doctrine

          • QuestionsEverything

            There are 7 Articles in the US Constitution. Which Judeo-Christian ethos contributed to the following?

            1. Role of the Legislative branch
            2. Role of the Executive branch; Election rules for the President and Vice President
            3. Role of the Judicial branch
            4. Relationship between the states and the federal government.
            5. Allowed Amendments to be added to the Constitution, and what is needed for them to be added
            6. The Constitution is the supreme law of the land
            7. Names of the ratifiers, confirming the Constitution of the United States

            That being said, can you imagine the Declaration of Independence or the Constitution without the influence of Aristotle, Cicero, Locke, Sidney, Montesquieu, etc.?

          • John Hutchinson

            With regard to the names that you speak, no I cannot. (I actually don’t know who Sidney and how he contributed). But the idea of a written constitution as opposed to the British/Roman model (excepting the Twelve Tables, which was a partial element of the Roman constitution), has its heritage in Mosaic Law, as the supreme law of the land. The names of the ratifiers and I would suggest that one must include the votes of those states that ratified, not merely the signers; has its origins in covenant theology. The original Jews in Moses time had to agree to the take it or leave law code that Moses presented. It was not imposed. It was the original social contract. I can give chapter and verse if necessary. The Christian faith and its New Covenant ought to apply only to Christians who subscribe by faith in the Gospel. It is also a social contract, although this has been corrupted by Christendom.
            However, you are cherry picking, which parts of the Constitution and Bill or Rights in order to prove your point. But you are straining too much to exclude the Judeo-Christian ethos from the founding documents. And I must critique you as much as I critique those Christianist idiots who exclude the influences of the Classics or the Renaissance (Machiavelli) and Enlightenment thinkers. The U.S. Constitution is very much a syncretism or synthesis of both Enlightenment Rationalism and Evangelical Reformation thought. Without the latter influence, you would have got the French Revolution model and its propensity for constant civic wars and autocratic interludes.

          • John Hutchinson

            Furthermore, although social contract theory exists amongst Enlightenment thinkers etc,, from where do you think they largely obtained the idea. It is a secularization of initially a religious idea (although the Hittites also had a take it or leave it covenant with potentially conquered cities).
            Although the first 5 points are primarily and more directly obtained from Aristotle and Montesquieu and maybe others, the idea of diffusion of power and then using them as checks against each other comes from a negative concept of human nature. It is not coincidental that the Democrats’ disparagement of checks and balances governance for a more efficient kind is related to a more benign understanding of human nature.
            Allowing amendments, which the Mosaic Constitution does not allow, stems from the acknowledgment that humanity is not omniscient. Plato/Aristotle would have looked aghast at a divinely given constitution that allowed for amendments. For change or the allowance for change would imply that something was or is now less than perfect. And their philosophical god (a form of deism) could never be changeable.

          • QuestionsEverything

            Thank you for discourse, John. Best of luck in your endeavors.

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