RichardMartinez

AN OPEN LETTER: To the parents of the victims murdered by Elliot Rodger

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By Joe “The Plumber” Wurzelbacher

I’m not talking here about the three tragic murders Rodger committed by stabbing before his driving and shooting spree; I speak now only to the families of the gunshot victims in Santa Barbara:

It’s a tragedy.

I am sorry you lost your child. I myself have a son and daughter and the one thing I never want to go through, is what you are going through now. But:

As harsh as this sounds – your dead kids don’t trump my Constitutional rights.

Richard Martinez, whose son (Christopher) was among the murdered, choked back tears at a news conference, blaming politicians the next day: “The talk about gun rights. What about Chris’ right to live?” Martinez said – and much more.

There are no critical words for a grieving father. He can say whatever he wants and blame whoever he’d like – it’s okay by me. You can’t take a step in his shoes – at least I can’t.

But the words and images of Mr. Martinez blaming “the proliferation of guns”, lobbyists, politicians, etc.; will be exploited by gun-grab extremists as are all tragedies involving gun violence and the mentally ill by the anti-Second Amendment Left.

As a father, husband and a man, it is my responsibility to protect my family. I will stand up for that right vehemently. Please believe me, as a father I share your grief and I will pray for you and your family, as I do whenever I hear about senseless tragedies such as this.

We still have the Right to Bear Arms and I intend to continue to speak out for that right, and against those who would restrict it – even in the face of this horrible incident by this sad and insane individual. I almost said “Obama Voter” but I’m waiting for it to be official.

I noticed the mainstream media have stopped the practice of immediately reporting the psycho maniac is a conservative Tea Party Republican Christian. Guess they’re sick of having to hide being wrong every time when it comes out the whacko votes Democrat?

Mr. Martinez and anyone calling for more restrictions on American’s rights need to back off and stop playing into the hands of the folks who merely capitalize on these horrific events for their own political ends.

They don’t care about your family or  your dead children at all. They sound like they do, whereas I sound uncaring and like I say, harsh. Don’t be fooled – I care about your family and mine. The future of our very liberty lies in the balance of this fight.

In conclusion, I cannot begin to imagine the pain you are going through, having had your child taken away from you. However, any feelings you have toward my rights being taken away from me, lose those.

Sincerely;

Samuel Joseph Wurzelbacher

PS: To the parents of Elliot Rodger’s stabbing victims: I’m very sorry for your loss. I’m sick to death every damn time I turn around and some poor soul with obvious violent mental sickness is allowed to exact this kind of pain on a family.

Elliot Rodger deserved help, yes – but your child deserved so much more. I’m very sorry and sad for you.

Joe “The Plumber” Wurzelbacher crashed on the scene in 2008 when a chance run-in with then candidate Barack Obama allowed Joe to confront the soon-to-be president on his tax-and-spend Socialist philosophy. Joe is founder of JoeForAmerica.com.

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  • Hogandda

    Your posting policy states “We have no tolerance for comments containing violence, racism, vulgarity, profanity, all caps, or discourteous behavior.”

    Then how do you allow such an opinion piece as this one?

    • NepotismIsDomesticTerrorism

      ‘Cause Joe Da Plumber’s a Real Amerikin (sic).
      Or something like that.

      • David Bovard

        God, are You Stupid Nepo Depo !!!

        • NepotismIsDomesticTerrorism

          Any particular reason, Dave?
          Or just your garden variety insult, straight out of page 22 of The Tea Party for Freedum (sic) & Liburty (sic) Handbook?

          • Scott Lanway

            Nonono, it’s “Freedumz.”

    • David Bovard

      Because the 2nd Amendment gives the right to have and use the 1st. Amendment; “Clam Brain”

      • NepotismIsDomesticTerrorism

        “Because the 2nd Amendment gives the right to have and use the
        1st. Amendment”

        Dave,
        Are you arguing that one can only employ the First Amendment if one is packing a weapon?
        Or are you asserting that one can only safely use the First Amendment if one is carrying heat?
        Looking forward to your insights on Constitutional law. Be sure to include the appropriate referrals back to the Supreme Court case in question that buffers your position(s).

      • Hogandda

        I thought God gave us all our rights, not a gun.

        • Me

          god gave us no rights. those were granted in the constitution written by the early americans. before the gov. started taking them away.

          • acornwebworks

            Gee. I truly thought the Founding Fathers said in the Declaration of Independence…not the Constitution…that “We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness…”.

            And it even listed Life first. Did you truly forget that??? Heck, I graduated from high school over 50 years ago, and *I* still remember it said that.

          • lynnnoe

            And which creator would that be? Please provide proof.

          • acornwebworks

            Sorry, but you might want to read what I actually said. Starting with “Gee. I truly thought the Founding Fathers said…”

            I didn’t say *I* believed in a creator…or did not believe in a creator. I was merely pointing out what the Founding Fathers…you know, those guys who wrote both the Declaration and the Constitution…said.

            And I wouldn’t have bothered with that if David Bovard hadn’t argued that the 2nd amendment was what gave us the right to have and use the 1st amendment.

          • dogfightwithdogma

            The Declaration is not this nation’s governing document. That distinction belongs to the Constitution. The right to life is expressed as an aspirational principle in the DOC but this document is not where the right takes flesh, so to speak. The right to life under our system is protected not in the DOC but in the 5th, 6th and 14th amendments of the U.S. Constitution. Now, please state clearly in what way your right to life has been abridged, diminished or taken away from you?

          • acornwebworks

            Yes, I realize that. I never implied otherwise.

            My point was that the Founding Fathers (who were involved in the writing of both the Declaration and the Constitution) felt it appropriate to toss in that “Creator” stuff to emphasize the importance of life and liberty and the pursuit of happiness.

            The writers of the Constitution (which replaced the Articles of Confederation because those were thought of as being too weak) took the whole life, liberty, pursuit of happiness into consideration when writing the Constitution. Took into consideration that whole “all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights” thinking.

            You may think it’s appropriate to see no correlation between them. I disagree. (And are you really arguing that the Constitution didn’t give us the right to life before the amendments…which came several years later??)

            Oh…and where on earth do you get the idea that *I* think my right to life has been abridged, diminished or taken away??? I never, not even once, suggested I thought that. I was merely adding my thoughts to the discussion…a discussion that didn’t include your question in the least little bit.

          • Hogandda

            What rights have been taken away from you? What rights did you have 40 years ago, a 100 years ago, that you don’t have now?

      • Clell65619

        David, that’s an awfully ignorant thing to say.

        The 2nd amendment gives the right to have and use the 1st? Why is it I suspect you refer to the 7th grade as your ‘senior year’?

      • Another bitter cynic

        Freedom of Speech has nothing to do with what Barbwire posts. The government is not threatening to jail employees for posting.

  • Jack

    “As harsh as this sounds – your dead kids don’t trump my Constitutional rights.”

    Have a nice day to you too, Joe.

    • CentralScruntinizer

      Well put.

  • http://www.last.fm/user/genx-ed Robert Dobbs

    You probably should have had someone edit this for douchery.

    • cc423

      There would be nothing left to print.

    • Jules

      Oh, boo hoo hoo; so your only son is dead. WHY, you ask? It’s because of YOU and people of your ilk. That’s right , blame everyONE and everyTHING else, instead of the killer and the abysmal American mental health system. Makes you and your cretin sympathizers which encompasses the majority of commenters here, all warm and cuddly to be so liberal and able to vent and express your so-called grief so publically. What’s next; who are you gonna sue? Is political office in your future? Not a word about his three Asian roommates, Elliot Rodger stabbed to death. Do they not deserve some of your so-called concern. Should we blame and disparage the cutlery industry also? Just go bury your son and STFU.

      • http://www.last.fm/user/genx-ed Robert Dobbs

        I wish you the best of luck in your life as a sociopath.

        • Jules

          I think all of you cretins should look up the definition of “sociopath”. It doesn’t fit me; maybe Schadenfreunde describes me better, although I am not gleeful at his loss, just ambivalent and distrustful of his histrionics.

          • twg23

            No you’re an absolute wackjob.

          • Jules

            Sticks and stones…..

          • nogeeksadmin

            Words won’t hurt you. Yep, you are a sociopath.

          • Jules

            Do you mean “absolute” in this context…a value or principle that is regarded as universally valid or that may be viewed without relation to other things.

          • willcommentforfood

            Incredible how poor your word comprehension is. Look, the word IN CONTEXT, something you’re having difficulty with due to your impulse control problems, the word means “complete”, not universal. Everybody but degenerate you knows that.

          • BobFromDistrict9

            Everybody but…

          • sunshipballoons

            I think he means: ”
            unequivocal: completely unequivocal and not capable of being viewed as partial or relative

          • willcommentforfood

            Yes, in wingnut world, the word only means that, as they use it as a pejorative against their notion of the liberal world view they deride as being situational ethics and lacking christian absolutes. In short, stupidity relies on simple concepts misapplied to all sorts of inappropriate situations, where simplistic answers provide great relief to impaired thinkers.

          • sunshipballoons

            right, twg23 was saying that jules/guest is a complete whackjob.

          • Cynthia Reagan

            Hi, I’ve heard about you. Do you still go by “Jules the Sociopath,” or did you just shorten it to “Jules?”

          • Paully

            Do you belong to WESTBORO Baptist. You fit right in

          • Jules

            Those people are on a par with you cretins flaming me. Don’t flatter yourselves, you are no better than them.

          • willcommentforfood

            Jules, you are a petty and pathetic bully t~roll. That is all.

          • Cynthia Reagan

            Go get ‘em Jules the Sociopath!

          • Robby Robinson

            Look at what the insurgents have done through 13 years of war to OUR armed forces. I am NOT bashing our armed forces as I am one of them, well was. I am a disabled veteran medically retired from the Army. As I come home we veterans are seen as a threat to the government. The DHS has specifically stated we returning veterans pose a threat to the nation as domestic terrorists.
            Wow, although I am a gun owner and AR platform owner, I am also a federal contractor through DHS/FEMA. I am only a threat to those who wish to do my country harm and I will protect OUR Constitution against all enemies, foreign and DOMESTIC

          • Robby Robinson

            Jules, stop fighting these people! No matter what we say they will see us as the bad guys. It is an exercise in futility and will do nothing but frustrate yourself

          • b0b hooper

            Do you?

          • sunshipballoons

            “although I am not gleeful at his loss, just ambivalent and distrustful of his histrionics”

            –I think YOU should look up the DSM definition of sociopath, because that last sentence is a pretty strong indicator that that is precisely what you are.

          • Jules

            OK smarty, name the THREE or more traits I exhibit qualifying me as as a sociopath.

          • sunshipballoons

            If you’re not “guest” at the start of this part of the thread, this is probably all I have: Your comment about your ambivalence in regard to the parent’s reaction to his loss perfectly fits “callous unconcern for the feelings of others.” That’s a pretty strong one, though. If you are “guest,” that’s even stronger.

            The “guest” comment reflects a gross disregard for social norms (e.g., not blaming a parent when a stranger murders their child), a very low tolerance for frustration/high level of irritability (you lash out at the father (who likely won’t even read your post) because you are angry about his “liberal” agenda and his “vent[ing] his so-called grief publicly.” So there’s three. Considering your response to me, I’d say I have doubt about your ability to experience guilt or remorse, so there’s four.

            Based just on your posts, I can’t speak to your penchant for deception, your impulsiveness (although your comments do suggest this to some extent), reckless disregard for others’ safety or consistent irresponsibility. So, JUST BASED ON YOUR COMMENTS HERE, you have strong indicia of 4 of 7 traits, and some lesser indicia of a 5th. The other two are not really able to be evaluated from an Internet message board.

          • nogeeksadmin

            He is “Guest”. Bonehead replied to someone calling out his alter-ego.

          • Jules

            You took number two out of context and quoted only the words to suit your argument. Typical. How do you determine a very low tolerance for frustration? Ambivalence and distrust do not equal frustration. Ambivalence by definition is not frustration. Your doubts as to my guilt or remorse feeling are only supposition on your part and mean nothing. Reckless disregard for others safety. and or consistent irresponsibility. . Where did that come from? You fail.

          • sunshipballoons

            Yours is the response of a sociopath, attempting to justify and explain away your behavior reinforces a couple of the indicia (disregard for social norms, lack of concern for feelings of others).

            I did not take the second one out of context. YOU said: “so your only son is dead. WHY, you ask? It’s because of YOU and people of your ilk.” So, to be clear, since you don’t seem willing to accept the meaning of what you said, you told us that one victim is dead because of his father and people like him. Yeah, that’s a disregard for social norms.

            If you think statements like this: “Just go bury your son and STFU.” reflect ambivalence and not a high level of irritability, I don’t know what to say to you, because telling somebody to “STFU” in the same sentence as “bury your son” doesn’t reflect ambivalence to most people. “Cruel” would be a more accurate term.

            Where did reckless disregard for others’ safety and consistent irresponsibility come from? I’m pretty surprised you’d need to ask that, since you were the one telling us we had to look up what sociopath means. But since you seem to not know, those are two of the DSM indicia of sociopathy. As I said, I have no idea from this message board whether you show those traits or not.

            Look, I’m not saying you’re a sociopath. There’s no way to make that diagnosis over a message board. But you have several indicia.

            So here’s a question for you: does it bother you that other people see what you’ve written and conclude that you might be a sociopath? If you do feel bad about that, good news: you’re probably not a sociopath.

          • Marcelino

            Yep they are right Sociopath.

          • Midge Baker

            “How do you determine a very low tolerance for frustration?”

            The fact that you couldn’t even take the time to register and so posted as “guest.” Such impatience signals frustration. And a lack of regard for social norms.

          • BobFromDistrict9

            Actually, from what he said, and based on my experience associating with Therapists I have done pro-bono computer work for, and what they have told me, I do suspect he knows what he is talking about.

          • jimshannon

            It’s right out of the DSM-IV, totally correct.

          • BobFromDistrict9

            Ha…the old version. I helped one of the therapists I mentioned buy the V.

            As expensive as those things are … sheesh.

          • korhal

            You have most assuredly displayed textbook sociopathy. I hope someone close to you is able to do something before you hurt someone.

          • Silver_Witch

            Well played my friend…very well played.

          • willcommentforfood

            I’d name them by each post you make here. That’s enough. A nonsociopath wouldn’t post here to spit on grieving people. He’d recognize it’s not the time nor place for a political agenda. You, on the other hand, are part of the bully crowd, and yes, that is sociopathic.

          • Robby Robinson

            The grieving father had the wherewithal to blame the NRA for his son’s demise. The NRA had nothing to do with his child’s killing

          • BobFromDistrict9

            The only one that matters, not giving a damn about others.

          • http://www.last.fm/user/genx-ed Robert Dobbs

            It’s not your fault you were born without the ability to feel empathy, but it doesn’t mean you’re a good person either.

          • Jules

            Empathy is not to be confused with compassion or sympathy, all of which are highly overrated.

          • nogeeksadmin

            Classic sociopathy. Keep babbling.

          • willcommentforfood

            Total charmer too.

          • sunshipballoons

            Well, he’s very much NOT a charmer, which is actually a tick on the not sociopath side of the equation.

          • willcommentforfood

            Great point; the sarcasm doesn’t translate well in my post, heh.

          • sunshipballoons

            No, no — I totally got that you were being sarcastic.

            Honestly, the fact that he’s stopped commenting suggests that he’s probably feeling regrets about some of what he said and therefore would not be a sociopath. I know I’ve gone too far on internet message boards (though not like this guy) and regretted later, so withdrew from the discussion. Although I try to apologize first…

          • BobFromDistrict9

            A subtle point, easily missed, but not telling. He can be a total obvious rotter and still be a sociopath.

          • sunshipballoons

            Yes, clearly he can. But sociopaths are disproportionately very charming, so the absence of charm reduces the likelihood. As I said, it’s a check on the non-sociopath column, not a litmus test.

          • willcommentforfood

            Overrated huh? So how many beaten children does it take before you get a clue. I’m calling CPS right now (figuratively).

          • http://gmail.com Barnyard1

            SMD.

          • rayb_baby

            And none of which you have!

          • dogfightwithdogma

            This remark alone reveals, at the very least, sociopathic tendencies, not to mention a misunderstanding of empathy. Empathy is a form of compassion. In fact it is the deepest most strongly felt kind of compassion. You apparently have a large empathy-compassion-sympathy deficit.

          • had2jumpin

            He is a worthless piece of trash. Psychopaths are evil pure and simple.

          • willcommentforfood

            First, you got word meanings wrong. Then, like Joenotmyrealname spit on those grieving, which is so low. You sir, are disgusting.

          • NoShrinkingViolet2013

            Precisely, Mr. Martinez conspired with the killer and sacrificed his son in the name of gun control – brilliant revelation, Jules. I have to agree with the comments made here about your craven callousness, utter absence of empathy and socio-pathic traits. Its clinical, to say the least. But that pretty much describes the mentality of every strident gun owner out there that does not believe in the slightest form of gun control. This “absolutism” is, like any absolutist way of thinking, both narcissistic and sociopathic.

          • Cameron Triplett Sr

            If you morons would just look at the facts of “gun control” from around the world, every last condemned one of you would realize that “gun control” is not the answer to safety, but it is the answer to total gov’t domination over a powerless people. While you Liberals would love to be in total control of gov’t, overpowering Conservatives, just think what would happen if Conservatives were the ones in total control of the gov’t & you Libs had no choice but to obey w/o question or argument. That’s why we have two Parties instead of one, so this Nation doesn’t turn into the USSR/Russia, or Iraq, or Pakistan, or any of a hundred other countries RULED by a set of little men who RULE by terror.

          • NoShrinkingViolet2013

            Dude, you need to get back onto your meds to treat that paranoia of yours. You are also seriously delusional in linking democratic freedoms to gun rights, people in Europe, Canada, and even S. American aren’t complaining of too little democracy and govt accountability and blaming it on open carry laws. Gun rights in this country have become a mania/fixation of the paranoid right which has no basis in reality and to which you are clearly a member of. And btw, I would use the term “moron” sparingly since you don’t want to blunt its impact in describing your ludicrous, sophomoric logic.

          • Cameron Triplett Sr

            My apology. I insulted morons worldwide when I lumped you into that category.Have you ever been outside the USA & witnessed first-hand the conditions under which peoples in other countries live? When the gov’t fears the people, you have a democracy. When the people fear the gov’t, you have a dictatorship. obama has used the IRS to try & strike fear into his political enemies. Our police have become para-military-type units. During Hurricane Katrina, in NO, they went around disarming little old ladies & prevented them from having any means of self-protection against armed looters. The Second Amendment gives teeth to the rest of the Constitution. W/o guns in private hands the Constitution wouldn’t be worth the scrap of paper upon which it’s written. You DO know that obama has a phone & a pen & to his twisted way of thinking, that’s ALL he needs to RULE this country. Banning guns will NOT stop murders, mass or otherwise., just increase them exponentially.

          • NoShrinkingViolet2013

            Hey Curly (or is it Moe), I bet you don’t even have a passport. I travel to Central and Western Europe on a regular basis. No one, I repeat no one, in Europe desires to have our broken political system and least of all, our totally foo-bared healthcare system. And I don’t need to be lectured on the Constitution by half-wits like yourself. Why do all of the high-school drop outs, Fox-indoctrinated fools think they are experts on the Constitution – that floors me every time. I bet you got an “F” in your Civics class. I don’t even need to read the drivel you post here on this site as I know what you are going to say even before you know it your self. And since you are in your retirement years, consider going back to school to improve your English language skills. My European friends speak better English than you do. Get a life Moe. And BTW, if Hurricane Katrina is the best you can do to support your 2nd Amendment argument, then you def. lost this debate.

          • Cameron Triplett Sr

            Yes, I do have a passport, & I graduated from HS w/honors. If you’re so enamored by European politics, take one more trip there & stay. I’ll admit, being from the South & proud of it, I say “ain’t” regularly, & damned Yankee from time to time. I have talked to many whose second language is English & have trouble understanding their enunciation. Sometimes they even use the wrong words in speaking. Katrina was just one example of an overbearing, too powerful gov’t turned loose on law-abiding citizens. Hell, even the police, who were SUPPOSED to “protect & serve” were breaking laws of decency & morality by demanding women trapped on rooftops show their breast before getting rescued. As for those who believe that any US military person would follow illegal orders to fire on American citizens on American soil, I suggest you get to know a few. There are some Muslims & other traitors infiltrated in various units, but their fellow soldiers & Marines will see to that. I have read & do read the Constitution often, & I try to interpret it using the definitions in play when it was written. The meaning of “is” never changes. People either obey the law, or don’t. Don’t twist words to CYA like Slick Willy did. He was just another POS who lied his way into the WH.

          • NoShrinkingViolet2013

            Well its been really educational talking to you. I am glad that as a Constitutional scholar you at least have a high school diploma. With that I know the Constitution is in good hands.

          • Cameron Triplett Sr

            Good to know that you are continuing your education, & you’re welcome. Now if all you shrinking violets only had the guts to post using your real names!

          • NoShrinkingViolet2013

            Yes, the IRS is Obama’s tool of political oppression, kind of like, lets see, the Hitler’s Gestapo, Stalin’s NVKD, the East Germany’s Stasi, what am I leaving out? Hey Curly, pass the Kool-Aid, I am thirsty.

          • M Wolf Garcia

            The only way the IRS could be used as a tool of political oppression is if the people being oppressed have something to hide. No one can use the IRS to oppress me, because I pay my taxes and haven’t tried to defraud the government of it’s share. If you have a reason to fear the IRS, that is because you are afraid they will find your dirty, little, secrets. Comparing the IRS to the Gestapo, the Stasi or the NVKD shows you have no idea what any of the groups are or how they operated. I have never seen IRS agents rounding up hundreds of people and sending them to death camps. I have yet to hear of IRS agents pulling sleeping people from there beds and shooting them in the head. Your attempt to use scary names to promote your agenda of fear, fear, fear, fails for the thinking man.

          • NoShrinkingViolet2013

            Are you serious, man? I was being completely facetious about the IRS, ribbing Mr. Triplett Sr. Of course the IRS is not a tool of political oppression, that is the farce of the political right. I agree, nothing to fear if you pay your taxes just like the rest of us.

          • M Wolf Garcia

            Sorry, I missed the sarcasm, being as your statement so closely aligns with others who would not be facetious, but would in fact trying to manipulate public opinion with fear. My apologies.

          • NoShrinkingViolet2013

            No worries. I went back to re-read it and I understand how you might have fallen for that. :-) My bad.

          • Cameron Triplett Sr

            What the hell do you think obama’s IRS has been doing!? They are intimidating people who openly oppose our tyrant-wanna-be. They have done nothing wrong concerning taxes. Our tax laws are so complicated that not even the ones who wrote them can agree on just what they allow & don’t allow.

          • NoShrinkingViolet2013

            Come on Bro, learn proper English grammar, you aren’t doing your cause any good. My 8th grade niece writes better than you.

          • Charles Balter

            “When the gov’t fears the people, you have a democracy.”

            No. That leads to the Oligarchy, Aristocracy, or Plutocracy that the United States is, and has been for decades, at least.

            You have guns? They have machine guns, snipers who could hit you from a mile a way, tanks, helicopters, fighter jets, unmanned drones, bombs, and nuclear weapons.

            Fear rarely leads to anything good. If you’re being attacked by a wild animal, fear might be an appropriate response. A government and people ruled by fear will produce nothing but terrible results.

            That’s why we have a country filled with guns and violence. The media and government saturate the populace with fear, leading them to make bad, irrational decisions.

            The fact of the matter is that for decades now, over 30,000 people die yearly in gun-related deaths in the United States. That rate is much, much, much higher than almost every country in the civilized world.

            A rational response would be to look at this epidemic of needless violence, injury, and death and see what could actually be done to address it. Unfortunately, both the government and citizenry are paralyzed by fear. This paralysis means nothing will get done, no matter how obvious it is to the rational mind that something must be done.

            And the violence will continue.

          • Cameron Triplett Sr

            30,000 die every year from gun violence? Do you have any idea how many LIVE because of the right to keep & bear arms? Do you even care? How many of those 30K were criminals who dies at the hands of other criminals or the hands of somebody protecting life & limb & property? When you figure out how to disarm all the illegally gun-toring criminals in America, let us know & we’ll gladly put our away.

          • Cameron Triplett Sr

            & when the people fear the gov’t, you have a dictatorship. We are supposed to be a REPUBLIC w/a DEMOCRATIC form of government. Crooked politicians have changed the face of gov’t here by lying to a gullible, ill-educated voting public. There are many more reasons, but you’ll never grasp any of them, so go on in your state of bliss as long as you can.

          • NoShrinkingViolet2013

            All very true Charles. Thanks for making some good points. That said, you won’t be changing the minds of those people more inclined to hug their short-arms as opposed to their kids.

          • BobFromDistrict9

            Look at every drug oligarchy. The govt fears at least some of the people, guns are widely available, and freedom is in short supply.

            Every failed state for that matter. Move to Somalia is you want a real open carry environment.

            Our police have become paramilitary thanks to right wing thinking.

          • Tonya Lindamood Hancock

            Hmm, those poor totally dominated by the government Brits they only had 58 gun related deaths in 2012 as opposed to over 8,000 here in America. Those poor, poor oppressed Brits missing out on all the mass shooting fun. Sorry, but I seem to have missed seeing the news reports of them making rafts to cross the Atlantic to flee the the tyranny of Queen Elizabeth II.

            If you think owning a gun makes you safe from the government then you really are stupid. They have nukes, drones, tanks, missiles, bunker buster bombs and that’s just the short list of how you are massively out-armed by the might of the U.S. military. But by all means, get together with you’re compensating-for-something gun buddies form a militia and take them on. It should be amusing for the whole ten seconds the fighting lasts.

          • Marcelino

            You sound gleeful and like an idiot and no one should ever go near you because if this your empathy for someone who lost their child I wouldn’t want a monster like you in my life.

          • BobFromDistrict9

            Actually, I have discussed this with some therapists I have done computer repairs for. From what they say, your comment does imply sociopathy.

          • Ruth Anastacia Adamcik

            My thanks to all of you who have pointed “Jules” out as exhibiting possible sociopathic behaviour. I had the bad luck of marrying a sociopath, and from long and bitter experience, I agree with everyone’s evaluation of Jules on this thread. I’m not saying I’m right; I’m saying that all the alarm bells associated with another’s sociopathic behaviour rang with Jules’ posts, and that all of you did a good job at defining his behaviour here. Actually, as one person noted on this thread, all conservatives these days are clinically sociopathic and narcissistic. Our beloved nation is ill, I am sorry to say, and this story about “Joe’s” reaction to the families of the victims of Elliot Rodger – especially Mr. Martinez’s reaction at the death of his son, only prove my point.

          • Cameron Triplett Sr

            To say “all Conservatives are sociopaths & narcissistic” is as true as saying that all Democrat/Liberals are idiots who don’t have a grasp on life, the facts, the truth, or anything else. You’re entitled to your opinion. I’m sorry you married a sociopath, but you can’t blame the world for your mistake. All of you armchair psychologists & therapists need to be sure & keep you day jobs.

          • NoShrinkingViolet2013

            Since the far-right has become mainstream conservatism in this country, its fair game and not an exaggeration to say that “all conservatives are sociopaths and narcissistic” because the far right is by definition socio-pathic and narcissistic. They don’t respond to reason or logic, they use demeaning and derogatory language when addressing their opponents/adversaries, they are overbearing tyrants that can only shout you down, and when they don’t get their way, they resort to violence (like the creep in Santa Barbara, Timothy Mc Veigh, etc), hence their clinging to “gun-rights” when most hard-working, normal people put their families before their personal obsessions, their guns … Need I say more?

          • sunshipballoons

            Can’t say I agree with this. While I don’t agree with the far right on much, if anything, I don’t think they are exclusively sociopaths. There is nothing inherently sociopathic about the vast majority of the far right’s views. Selfish? Sure. Disturbingly in the area of social control (vs. personal control, which is a sign of sociopathy). Absolutely. But that doesn’t make them all sociopaths. I’m sure they’ve got them though.

          • NoShrinkingViolet2013

            A total lack of empathy, sensitivity and fair-mindedness in the face of this calamity says a lot about their collective-consciousness and way of thinking. I can’t think of any other word for it.

          • sunshipballoons

            Well, first of all, a group can’t be sociopathic in the technical sense because it refers to a condition involving the lack of normal human feelings in a human being. Organizations, not being human beings are by definition not capable of things like empathy, so the absence of such feelings isn’t a deficit or difference compared to other people.

            Second, the fact that, as a group, organizations like the tea party or far right feature conduct that in an individual would reflect the type of consciousness you refer to (e.g., lack of empathy, sensitivity and fair-mindedness) does not necessarily mean that all, most or even many of their members actually lack such basic (empathy and sensitivity) and non-basic (fair-mindedness) human emotions. Groups are funny that way.

            While I don’t think it is sociopathic in the true sense of that word, however, I do think that the tea party and far right are awful awful awful, in part for the reasons you identify.

          • NoShrinkingViolet2013

            Of course I am not mistaking the group for the individual, that would be like calling a corporation an individual. I am saying like-minded people are attracted to one-another, identify with one another and as a consequence form a collective consciousness. I think you are taking my suggestions a little to literally, which kind of is what the conservative movement suffers from in their fundamentalist approach to everything.

          • sunshipballoons

            I don’t think I’m taking you too literally at all. I distinguished between the literal statement you made — that it is “not an exaggeration to say that ‘all conservatives are sociopaths and narcissistic’ because the far right is by definition socio-pathic and narcissistic” — which is incorrect, and the more general intent of your post — essentially, the modern right wing doesn’t care about people — with which I agreed.

          • NoShrinkingViolet2013

            And now you are splitting hairs and took my original comments out of context. The far-right represents is the de facto face of the conservative movement in American politics, therefore its fair to brand them all as one. If the fair-minded people of the GOP did more than standby and do nothing and call out the bad actors in their party then they would have a separate seat at the table but they don’t, all in the name of party unity.

          • sunshipballoons

            I do not think it is splitting hairs to distinguish between actual sociopathy and conduct by an organization that, if done by an individual, might be evidence of sociopathy in that individual.

            I agree with your view that the modern conservative movement does not care about people. I agree that a lot of individuals within the conservative movement do not care about others. I agree that the fair-minded people of the GOP bear a great deal of responsibility for their failure to stop the far right and related failure to advance a reasonable agenda with which I would disagree but feel like is a reasonable position for the “other side” to have.

            You are wasting a lot of ink trying to argue that everything I said in agreement with you is wrong. That’s confusing to me. Usually, when people agree with me, I don’t try to convince them and others that they are wrong.

          • NoShrinkingViolet2013

            Yes except the far-right is not an organization but more a loose association of like-minded individuals (I was not referring specifically to the Tea Party, but you can include them as well).

            In any case, I think we agree more than we dont so we should just leave it at that.

            Good chatting with you.

          • Cameron Triplett Sr

            The Right wants to expand personal control while the far Left wishes to control all persons in all ways. Don’t agree w/the Left? Then you have no right to an opinion or voice.

          • sunshipballoons

            No. Just like the left, the right has a variety of things they believe in and when less government involvement helps prop up those beliefs, they go that direction; when more involvement helps them more, they go that direction Compare gun control and taxation to abortion, same sex marriage and police power/privacy issues. The left is no different.

            To be clear, I don’t see anything wrong with that. I’ve never understood why people think “how much government involvement is best” is the appropriate question when making policy. You make policy to further your goals. Sometimes that means more government works better, sometimes it means less government works better.

            Politicians and, consequently, everyone else, like to talk about the role of government. But the reality is that the main differences between the left and the right have nothing to do with the role of government, they have to do with what our policy goals are. And that’s fine. But we aren’t particularly honest with ourselves about that.

          • Ktycat53

            long as people think that their rights come from the government and NOT their Creator, we will continue to lose our freedoms in this country

          • sunshipballoons

            My rights derive from my mom and dad? Eh.

          • Cameron Triplett Sr

            Don’t forget that the far LEFT is even MORE narcissistic & socio-pathic than the far Right because they refuse to acknowledge the very real harm that their policies cause. Pot can’t call the kettle black.

          • NoShrinkingViolet2013

            Far left? Okay Mr. Postman, you must have just stepped out of a time warp because there is no far left in this country any more, they were all co-opted by the establishment and are either doing time or are on the board of a Fortune 500 company.

          • sunshipballoons

            Absurd. I mean, you’re probably right about people on the left not recognizing or admitting the negative consequences of their policies, but it’s just as true for the right. So, you’re solution is nobody should ever point out the problem with anything, because they have problems themselves. That, of course, makes no sense. If we followed that rule, nothing could ever get better because all people are flawed.

          • a. tronetti

            No, I think sociopath is appropriate. Some of the traits match your posts:
            Manipulative and Conning
            They never recognize the rights of others and see their self-serving behaviors as permissible. They appear to be charming, yet are covertly hostile and domineering, seeing their victim as merely an instrument to be used. They may dominate and humiliate their victims.

            Grandiose Sense of Self
            Feels entitled to certain things as “their right.”

            Pathological Lying
            Has no problem lying coolly and easily and it is almost impossible for them to be truthful on a consistent basis. Can create, and get caught up in, a complex belief about their own powers and abilities. Extremely convincing and even able to pass lie detector tests.

            Lack of Remorse, Shame or Guilt
            A deep seated rage, which is split off and repressed, is at their core. Does not see others around them as people, but only as targets and opportunities. Instead of friends, they have victims and accomplices who end up as victims. The end always justifies the means and they let nothing stand in their way.

            Shallow Emotions
            When they show what seems to be warmth, joy, love and compassion it is more feigned than experienced and serves an ulterior motive. Outraged by insignificant matters, yet remaining unmoved and cold by what would upset a normal person. Since they are not genuine, neither are their promises.

            Callousness/Lack of Empathy
            Unable to empathize with the pain of their victims, having only contempt for others’ feelings of distress and readily taking advantage of them.

            Poor Behavioral Controls/Impulsive Nature
            Rage and abuse, alternating with small expressions of love and approval produce an addictive cycle for abuser and abused, as well as creating hopelessness in the victim. Believe they are all-powerful, all-knowing, entitled to every wish, no sense of personal boundaries, no concern for their impact on others.

          • jythoma

            In terms he may be able to relate to, like Sharon Stone in Basic Instinct, or better yet, Kathy Bates in Misery. Nutty as a fruit cake, he is.

          • Cameron Triplett Sr

            DAMN!!! You just described obama & the entire Left-wing, extreme, Liberal, Democrat Party! Well done!

          • rayb_baby

            And you have PROVEN beyond any doubt that you are an idiot.

          • WordSmith

            Jeezus, dude! Seriously? You write: “…..although I am not gleeful at his loss, just ambivalent and distrustful of his histrionics.”

            Histrionics, eh? It’s grief.

            As someone suggested, look up the DSM definition of sociopath. You couldn’t have constructed a better sentence to offer indications of what you are. Also, while you’re at it – look up ‘Schadenfreunde’ {sic}. BTW, it’s Schadenfreude; it comes from the word ‘freude’ (joy), not ‘freunde’ (friend).

          • drblues01

            A man being upset and angry about his child being shot to death is histrionic? He should just say too bad he had a bad day, yea the second amendment (minus the beginning part)? And, by the way, it’s schadenfreude, not schadenfreunde.

          • qcubed63

            Fool is all the definition you deserve.

        • Me

          i wish you luck in life with that 40 i.q. you have

      • Bluespetal

        What is wrong with you? You are precisely the type of person that the mental health system has failed.

        • Jules

          Nothing is wrong with me. I just don’t like a whining phony using the death of his son to foist his insincere drivel with the intent to score points with cretins of his and your ilk. Watch and see if he doesn’t use this incident to promote himself.

          • twg23

            English…Do you speak it?

          • Jules

            In what context?

          • David

            You mean like Joe just did?

          • Nan Noxious

            QFT except that I’d argue that Joe has done even worse, using the deaths of someone else’s children to foist his insincere drivel with the intent to score points with cretins of his ilk (to paraphrase Jules).

          • Shawn Blagg

            I sincerely hope your life ends after being shot in the head.

          • Jules

            Now, now, little shawnie that is so UNCHRISTIAN.

          • Shawn Blagg

            Coward.

          • Guest
          • nogeeksadmin

            I’d rather he gets it in the gut. Slower, more painful.

          • Jules

            NGA…You were a rap group once; right?

          • BobFromDistrict9

            Thanks for the laugh.

            You didn’t even get that right.

          • willcommentforfood

            It’s NWA, freak. I notice you do the same thing as Archie Bunker, the ignorance of twisting around words so they become things they aren’t and never were, and think yourself clever while everyone else, even those who may agree with your politics, thinks you are behaving as an idiot.

          • Boneyard Betty

            Seriously? We are hoping for people to be shot to death on a post about people being shot to death?!!? I mean, the person is clearly here to push buttons and isn’t interested in a rational discussion but you all are giving them exactly what they want – attention. And now you are wishing him death. Who is the bad person here?

          • Shawn Blagg

            He is. He’s blithely spitting in the face of the people who’s pain is legitimate. You can’t rehabilitate that kind of lack of compassion. You can only kill it. And of all things, it would be deliciously ironic that such a hateful person would be killed by the very callous cause he is so wrapped up in.

            Yes I am wishing death on this guy. I hope it finds him whoever he really is, and wherever he is at.

          • nogeeksadmin

            So you are “Guest”, then. Thanks for, again, verifying your sociopathy. Inventing invisible friends to bolster your own spew. Priceless.

          • Jules

            Bolster your own spew. Priceless. That’s what your mother said.

          • rayb_baby

            Uh Oh! Jules is down to 8th grade tactics as he has NOTHING else!

          • TW

            Wow Jules, you are the true definition of a coward. Hiding behind the anonymity of your keyboard to say hateful things about a grieving father simply because you disagree with his politics? Writing things that you would never have the courage to say out loud to other people. (And you know this.) I have to say, you may just be the smallest and most bitter little person on this whole planet. Seriously. Disgust is all that I have for you. One day karma will set you straight once and for all. Wish I could be there to see that.

          • bluepeaches

            Just remember, if you argue with a fool, then there are two. Jules is beyond saving. I hope you are right about karma.

          • aloha43

            Wow, Jules….you really are a sick puppy. You need help.

          • a. tronetti

            Wow. Big-time sociopath. “Whining phony”? When he is in the immediate aftermath of the violent murder of his only son? “Insincere drivel”? Does a grieving parent not meet your definition of sincere? You are either a sociopath, or a paid troll.

          • rayb_baby

            ” a whining phony” whose son was just murdered?????? I’ll bet that you think he even planned it himself. You are totally pathetic. You ARE clearly a sociopath.

        • lexi001

          Finally, someone states what is wrong with this man!!

      • RAS

        Your compassion is touching…

        • Jules

          Compassion is highly overrated.

          • willcommentforfood

            I’ll be the one in your bullying face to tell you what’s over rated: Bullying, willful stupidity, inability to comprehend words properly, inability to respect people’s grieving, inability to form coherent arguments. All over rated. Also, big egos, guns, fists, belligerence, coming to comment boards full oneself, these are for sure over rated. Your intelligence and decency is far over rated, sadly. If you had any, dialog would be possible, but instead as you think compassion is over rated, conversely you will receive very little.

      • Rick McCallister

        I hope your child dies at the hands of a murderer, just so we can tell you to go boo-hoo to the funeral and fùck off.

        • Jules

          Ricky-poo, I’ll bet your uncle or your grandfather is your father; righter

          • twg23

            Jules you are white trash at its finest.

          • Jules

            Who says I be white?

          • willcommentforfood

            Jules, I can tell you aren’t a race, you aren’t acting human. You’re a subhuman t~roll getting a base thrill attacking people pointlessly for kicks. Boring, try harder so even the mild Disqus folks can ban you, that would be exciting for both of us. You could talk to your ‘friends’ about that, and we’d relish coming here without seeing your filth.

          • Kaptain_Kool

            Just out of curiosity, how is one “Not a race”?

          • willcommentforfood

            If one is a t~roll like Jules, who is obsessed with “race”, but really doesn’t understand anything, they aren’t privileged enough to even earn any racial status, not even the one they were born with. Since they make a bad game out of racial issues, any serious discussion of issues is in the toilet and impossible. Therefore, they are not a race. Their behavior isn’t even human. T~rolls love to pretend not to be human exactly that way. Follow my logic? I do think it makes a lot of sense. I do believe in treating all folks with as much dignity as I can muster, but when t~rolls just take your good faith and twist it into a creepy game, then you can’t allow them to put you into their trap, they count on your humanity to sucker you in.

          • Me

            well willcommentforfood is not a race, not acting “human”, but is in fact a troll.

        • ChrisTS

          I don’t want anyone – child or not – to be murdered. I do hope that “Guest’ has not and never will reproduce.

          • Jules

            What does the TS stand for; as if we didn’t know? Wish in one hand and spit in the other.

      • MsValerie

        What is wrong with you? You are a sociopath.

        • Jules

          Hey Val, do you have ambiguous genitalia that could be mistaken for a plumber?

          • Sirk

            “ambiguous genitalia”? Are you getting off on this? You need help.

          • Jules

            I’ll take all the help I can get. BTW, my grass need cutting; you up for it?

          • willcommentforfood

            Flagged all 3 of your most offensive comments, the genitilia ones went over into flag territory. I urge others not to put up with this garbage and flag it.

          • Jules

            Oh, No! PLEASE PLEASE, don’t flag my comments. It’s almost my bedtime, and I shant be able to sleep now I’ve been censored by a glutton. Tell me, how many donuts did you earn tonite. Do you get the glazed ones or the cake ones for being a BULLY.

          • willcommentforfood

            Jules, I’ve shown GREAT restraint in your case and followed the rules, and in fact it would be a violation of rules to allow your filthy comments, the flaggable ones not to be flagged. You’re the expert on being a bully, but being full of projection are unqualified to judge. I’m glad if you can’t sleep, glad to help a sarcastic nitwit. Actually, so sorry because with your issues lack of sleep could put you over the edge further.

          • Jules

            Are you a victim of ambiguous genitalia. What sex did they choose for you at birth. Most are raised as girls. You….?

          • Ted_Zee_Man

            ONE THING THAT WE ALL KNOW IS YOU HAVE NO BALLS, NO COURAGE, NO INTELLIGENCE, NO MORALITY AND NO RELIGION.

          • Jules

            And yo know all this ….How?

          • vonnegut

            Nothing wrong with having no religion…

          • sunshipballoons

            Or having no balls. Y’know: women.

      • Jay Purti

        @ gutless guest
        you possess neither the brains nor the gonads of a gnat
        My sincere apologies to the Gnat Kingdom

        • Jules

          Oh Jay, I’ll bet your last name is so apropos. I’ll bet you’re real purdy too. Do you have all your teeth and can you squeal like pig?

          • willcommentforfood

            Little fool, you are so poor with language. Purti could be pretty, or party, or a regular last name. Your idea of what it means is as uneducated and dirtball as it gets. Your t~rolling is the dunce cap of this party and it ain’t purdy, it’s pathetic. Blogging from jail?

          • IntelligenceisAVirtue

            Don’t feed the trolls, it just makes them come back for more.

          • willcommentforfood

            Tough call, as sometimes ignoring the t~roll encourages them more too. Calling out their bs is sometimes the best thing to do. Ignoring is not always the best policy, especially if the t~roll is posting all over the comment board and trying to dominate it, take over a comments section and make it unreadable. You can’t allow that either. So it is a dilemma between ignoring and taking down, smacking down. But I think your famous internet slogan is a bit too simplistic although it is often true.

          • IntelligenceisAVirtue

            He is replying to every one that replies to his posts. He is obviously enjoying the attention, treat him like a toddler acting out for attention, ignore him and see how frustrated he gets.

          • willcommentforfood

            We tried ignoring him and the result was his dominance of the comments section, instead by the overwhelming responses he received, the integrity of the threads was restored, the content became far more interesting, and it was clear the troll was ridiculed as deserved and had no support. Had he been ignored, he would have been the entire section by himself. No, it was right to go after him and reduce him to a puddle of melting water.

          • IntelligenceisAVirtue

            He wants your reaction, that’s why they do it, to get a response. That is his goal, and you give it to him.

      • Michelle Kirkwood

        Good grief—you’re one cold, messed up troll. And this Joe the Fake Plumber (whose 15 min. were up after McCain used him then kicked him to the curb after the 2008 election) hijacking this tragic incident to state his opinion against gun rights—he needs to shut the hell up and go back to his cave, because he’s just another damn right-wing nut screaming about his paranoid fear of any restrictions on guns. Sorry, but a person life trumps his gun rights anytime because you don’t get to do whatever the hell you want with a gun–you have to abide by the law with a gun just like anything else. He just wants his little moment of fame back, and frankly nobody cares because he’s done nothing of note politically since then anyway.

        • Jules

          Hey Michelle, pay attention, you’re off topic, we’re talking about ME not Joe.

          • willcommentforfood

            Wow, you are reaching new levels of stunning idiocy. If you want to get to the t~roll hall of fame, you have a long way to go. Right now, you’re just mired in mediocrity.

        • BobFromDistrict9

          He did take on another title. He ran against Marcy Kaptur for congress. Her opponents get the renowned title of ‘Sacrificial Lamb’.

          Though, in his case, I believe they changed it to ‘goat’.

      • Shawn Blagg

        I hope you get shot.

        • Jules

          Now, now Shawnie, you sure do “HOPE” a lot. I’ll bet you “hope”one day you will grow up and leave kindergarten.

          • Shawn Blagg

            cowards hide behind fake names and poke witless barbs. If you had one ounce of worth in your whole being, you’d at least own up to your comments… instead, you hide like the frightened little child that you are.

          • Jules

            Now, Now Shawnie, no ad hominems

          • willcommentforfood

            Please stop using big words you don’t comprehend. It’s a one trick RW pony of yours, but we’ve all seen through it.

          • Me

            YOU ARE THE ONE TRICK PONY

          • Shawn Blagg

            I hope you live a bitter life.

      • johnthejanitor

        Wow Mr Guest, if that is your real name. You sound just like Sarah Palin. Its amazing how people of your ilk can never take any responsibility for anything that you do. And as much, about your question ” Is political office in your future?” Isnt that how Mr Plumber got his start into so called politics. And why is than no talent plumber, a union plumber to be exact, unemployed? Because he obviously sucks at his job. But according to you its not Joes fault its his Employers.

        • Jules

          Look here John, you’re apparently the epitome of “The Peter Principle. Have you been sniffing the dust mop treatment again?. Who gives a damn about Joe the Plumber. He ceased being the subject many posst ago. Now it’s about me being a sociopath. Pay attention.

          • willcommentforfood

            T~roll on a roll. Call everyone! He wants so much attention! I’ve given you flags and what you twistedly think is adoration, begone from us, the adults are talking, your child table is over at Redstate, no insult intended to kids.

          • Me

            and yet YOU KEEP FEEDING THE TROLL SO THAT MAKES YOU ONE ALSO.

          • johnthejanitor

            Must it be all about you. I know you right wingers are totally self involved, but come on

      • sangsue

        Karma will visit you, Guest who doesn’t even have the guts to use a name. And when it hits anyone who is stupid enough to actually love a creature like you, I will laugh and laugh.

        • nogeeksadmin

          Same guy as “Jules”. Currently agreeing with himself further down on the thread. ;)

        • Jules

          C’mon Sue, baby, Is the laughter deju vue for your relationships?

          • willcommentforfood

            It’s deja vu, genius. Try google. Oh no, that would mean using a tiny tool to educate and do right, no can do for you, must knuckledrag with grunt for I want and I do grunt.

          • Confused

            Dude, you’re really pathetic and its not even BC of your insensitivity, its BC you’ll actually sit here for hours responding to people. You really need to get a life.

      • David Chan

        You can’t even comment with a real name because you are a coward.

        • Jules

          And what does a “REAL” name prove if anything? Is David Chan a real name or a pseudonym Who know and why or do I really care?

          • willcommentforfood

            True, all the names here don’t matter, the content is what matters. You’ve proved yourself to have painfully humiliatingly ridiculous thought processes from your comments. David Chan on the other hand has my respect given he tried to take down a coward, he gets points from me for that.

        • Me

          how do we know you real name is ” david chan” chump?

      • NoShrinkingViolet2013

        Anonymous coward, if you are going to say inflammatory things and callously blame the victim, then at least have the courage and decency to identify yourself. But I am guessing that you are privately an admirer of the shooter and will slavishly defend his constitutional right to slaughter innocent people even if it kills you?

        • Me

          why dont YOU IDENTIFY YOURSELF.

      • Confirmation_Bias

        “So-called grief”, eh? That father of a dead son was definitely faking it for the liberal gun-grabbing agenda. Betcha Obama was in on it too.

      • Confused

        I’d like you to come to The Bronx with your guns and I’ll bring mine. We can have a duel just like the founding fathers. You can be Alexander Hamilton and I will be Aaron Burr.

      • Marcelino

        You hide behind a guest, because your gun is there to compensate for your tiny penis? Am I getting that right, and you make fun of this man’s pain because no women would ever touch or look at you, and you sit there at your computer trying to sound like someone who comes off as a REAL man when you are nothing but a coward. Yeah way to go loser.

      • chris1990

        dear me, your heart must be black in colour.

      • mom_carmina

        Elliot Rodger DID have help – he saw multiple therapists from the time he was a child. He had the best money could buy. Care to take it back or STFU?

      • JTQ

        Bingo for the most idiotic person on the planet today.

      • invictus2

        You are a murderous barbarian before the fact.

      • drblues01

        Yes, his response to his son just being murdered is a calculated attempt to build his rep to run for office. And yes, he should be as concerned about strangers being killed as about the loss of his son. Read your own words for an operational definition of moron.

      • http://www.yahoo.com SGT USARMY 20012

        Special place in hell for you “guest”

        How about you be a man and put your real name on here.
        And your family member’s names as well.

      • fred

        I think it’s you crying about your guns. At least this father has a reason to grieve, but you are crying over an issue that is made up in your head. People are only asking for common sense measures. No one wants to take all your guns yet here you are boo hooing over a piece of steel and treating a grieving father like trash. I think it’s you who needs to stfu and go bury you paranoid delusions.

      • Edward J. Wilkins

        youre as a big a douche as joe. Go drown in a bucket of bleach.

      • Carmen Gradin

        The way you express yourself. leaves me to believe, you do not have, and wish you never. have Children! you are a heartless. selfish/.egoistical. and soulless person!!!!!!! i have a thousand more words for you., but im ashamed to write them down. figure out yourself . what they are, i bet Mr. Martnez. knows what they are! its people like you that don’t deserve to own guns!

      • Barbara

        Why so angry? Have you walked in his shoes?

      • johnrf

        Thank you for confirming what we already thought about right wing weirdos.

      • Ashlynn Mitchell

        Yes how dare they introduce such a thing as background checks that would have found out this person was mentally unfit to own a firearm.
        Imagine if they did allow background checks most members of the NRA would then be deemed unfit to own a firearm

        • WXRGina

          How would a “background check” have shown he was unfit to own a gun? How could a “background check” show, without a gross violation of privacy, that he went to a counselor? How would simply going to a counselor show on a “background check” that you’re unfit to own a gun without the “background check” revealing the contents of your counseling session, since he had no real criminal record?

          As for your stupid contention about NRA members, well, that just lends the rest of your comment irrelevant, besides being wrong.

      • uuberdude

        When all you have are speculation, hyperbole, lies, fallacy, insults, and lies, you have nothing.

      • Lilredhead

        Do you consider yourself human? Monster or sociopath is what any sane person would call you.

      • taazz7859

        You are right on, they stupidly follow like sheep what lame-stream media says and do everything, blame everybody and never address the real problem. I’m not a sheep, I protect the sheep close to me from the wolves of the world. Wolves comes to us dressed as sheep b

    • HairyGuy

      no. the kid was mentally ill. a gun was just part of his plan. he already used KNIVES before the gun to kill people. should we ban knives???

      • nene

        No we shouldn’t ban knives but give me an instance where knives were used for mass murder. No one goes out to the streets at 9pm nd starts stabbing people on the sidewalk. Why always guns

        • Me

          Osaka school massacre

    • MrApple

      You’ve done a nice job of saying nothing.

  • Ashley Anne

    Doucheriffic

  • Leonardo Ortiz

    As a father, the only thing i can tell you is “que hijo de puta”.

    • David Bovard

      and f%&K You !

      • Jay Purti

        chingale ese

  • http://obbop.wordpress.com/ obbop

    In the PC USA emotions trump logic and rationality.

    Sorry, folks, there will never be the longed-for perfect safety from evil in our lives. Bad things happen and no amount of laws or whining will change reality.

    • Jack

      Yeah, because people who lose their son or daughter or spouse or parent or friend to pointless gun violence are just being overemotional. I have the feeling you would change your opinion very quickly if you were in Mr. Martinez’s position.

      PS: Douche.

    • Leonardo Ortiz

      Nobody is asking for a perfect world, only that mentally ill people have a hard time getting their hands in assault rifles. Is that too much to ask?

    • http://www.last.fm/user/genx-ed Robert Dobbs

      When you say “PC” what you really mean is common courtesy.

      Sorry common courtesy is so anathema to you.

      • NepotismIsDomesticTerrorism

        “Common courtesy ain’t Amerikin (sic)!”
        Mark Levin screamed those very words last week.

    • NepotismIsDomesticTerrorism

      “Sorry, folks, there will never be the longed-for perfect safety from evil in our lives. Bad things happen and no amount of laws or whining will change reality.”
      Yeah, maybe if we had a Joe Da Plumber with a Second Amendment example on his belt or over his shoulder on every street corner in Amerika, we’d stop a UCSB Ayn Rand acolyte with a BMW. You know, the Wayne LaPierre Way.
      Like in the old days. Sorta John Wayne. Meets Bedtime for Bonzo.

  • Glenn Boyce

    “Joe” – I hope that there comes a day that your “gun-grab” straw-man actually comes to pass, and your guns are indeed grabbed. And may that day come before your own kids shoot and kill themselves accidentally with your own Constitutionally-protected firearms.

    You fail at humanity.

    • NepotismIsDomesticTerrorism

      Better chance Joe Da Plumber plugs himself in the thigh after trying to pry his wallet out of his pocket to actually pay for something BUT forgetting to lock the safety on his example of Constitutional Rights strapped to his waste.
      Not only would that keep the kids out of it, but it would be funny as all get out.
      Vegas gives 2:5 book that Joe Da Plumber would blame his self-inflicted wound in such an instance on one of President Obama’s FEMA Concentration Camp (sic) “hit teams”, based outside San Francisco, coming to take his Constitutional Rights.

      • David Bovard

        Why dont you take a long walk off a short pier !

        • NepotismIsDomesticTerrorism

          Any particular reason?

          • Me

            so you will shut the hell up.

          • NepotismIsDomesticTerrorism

            Me,
            Hate to break this to you, BUT…
            No one is talking on this website.
            We’re either typing or reading. Words. On a keyboard. No sound save, of course, the drumming of the computer keyboard and/or handheld device. (No, not THAT handheld device.)
            Of course, it’s a given that your lips are moving as you read. Perhaps that’s what’s producing the sound you believe to be talking.
            Unless….
            Me, are you hearing voices again? You know what your Preacher said you should do the next time you hear voices: Drop down onto your knees and pray to Reverend Tebow.
            Or you can call your local Tea Party headquarters and they’ll send over some nice Real Amerikins (sic) in a non-Uppity white van to take you on a long, slow drive to somewhere safe and far, far away from the FEMA camps (sic). After their time and treatment, perhaps you’ll no longer hear the voices?
            Just be sure to keep praying to Reverend Tebow…

        • willcommentforfood

          Poor baby, did you get your political obsession hurt? Too bad it is so huge for you that it eclipses any sense of decency.

    • Cale P

      Glenn maybe one day your kids will accidentally knock your vehicle out of gear and it will roll over them, which will kill them. Or maybe your significant other will accidently drop a kitchen knife in the floor and they will trip and fall on it and kill them. Then what ate you gonna do? You gonna sue the automotive and cutlery companies because of your stupidity?!

  • Kenny

    Joe the Plumber is a DICK!

    • aloha43

      No….a dick is a good thing.

      He is a bloody hemorrhoid.

      • Kenny

        Good point. I stand corrected :-)

  • Larry Larson

    Sarah Palin and Joe Not The Plumber must have the same ghostwriter.

  • Find the Truth

    Anyone that believes that this is a “rational” response to the tragedy in California needs to seek help from a medical professional because such a person would be INSANE…

  • NepotismIsDomesticTerrorism

    Joe Da Plumber is armed.
    Amerika is safe.

  • ahh_2_2

    Fakeo plumber man forgot to add that if this shooting was carried out by a Muslim, then constitutional rights be damned.

    • willcommentforfood

      Nailed it!!!

  • DrRick65041

    Joe you are sick individual. Please, if anything EVER happens to me or my family, don’t pray for us. I don’t want whatever it is you worship having anything to do with me or my family.

  • IslandTyger

    That is the sickest, most disgusting thing I’ve read since the Rodgers Manifesto. Good work.

  • NepotismIsDomesticTerrorism

    “I’m sick to death every damn time I turn around and some poor soul with obvious violent mental sickness is allowed to exact this kind of pain on a family.”
    Joe Da Plumber’s Solution: We oughta kill every “pour soul with obvious violent mental sickness” before they kill one of “Us”. Ain’t no need to give ‘em Commie guvmit (sic) health care. If they can’t get off their butts and get a job, then take ‘em out now. (Just don’t use a Constitutional weapon to do the job.)

  • johng

    FU “Joe”.

  • Red_Ruffensor

    This item makes it official. Barbwire is now the web’s #1 comedy site.

  • maccamcfc

    I hope this knob head gets what’s coming to him this nonsense he has spouted is inexcusable.

  • Jack

    If (God forbid) some crazed maniac with a gun were to kill his child, I wonder if he would tell himself to suck it up and quit whining.

    • NepotismIsDomesticTerrorism

      Nah. Joe Da Plumber would call Roger Ailes and get booked for a solid month on Hannity and, as an added extra bonus, land a autographed picture of Megyn Kelly (signed by Ailes’s butler, of course) in her GQ lingerie.

      • David Bovard

        Maybe you will get aids or cancer and not be around very long. Oh Please, please !!!

        • NepotismIsDomesticTerrorism

          Did you learn that first sentence at church on Sunday, Dave?
          Or just at the most recent Tea Party meeting in your area?

        • Jay Purti

          don’t forget karma kkkdawg

        • willcommentforfood

          What I enjoy, sick pleasure but I’m sure many here feel the same, I enjoy reading banned comments that no longer display and you have to click to view them. This belongs in that category and I hope it gets there. All others have to do for that to happen, is flag that foul comment. Make my day please!

  • Pingback: Joe The Plumber: 'Your Dead Kids Don't Trump My Constitutional Rights' To Have Guns

  • Melinda Craig

    ‘your dead kids’…. who in their right mind comes at a grieving parent that way?

    • godblessusa

      No one in their right mind, that’s who.

      • NepotismIsDomesticTerrorism

        “who in their right mind comes at a grieving parent that way?”
        A. Joe Da Plumber, the AM talk radio crowd, and Roger Ailes’s Hacks from 5-11 p.m.
        Of course, no one claim any of these people, including the Joe Da Plumber, is in his/her right mind.
        More like Far, Far, Far, Far Right Minders, one and all.
        Example: 74,925 of why Ayn Rand Acolytes, Tea Partiers, John Birchers, Neocons, and Cons give the GOP and America a bad rap.

        • Me

          not as much as the republicants and democraps.

          • NepotismIsDomesticTerrorism

            You’ve actually got a few words of English in there, Me. Keep trying and 20 or 30 years from now, you’ll be able to write a whole sentence in English.

      • ShesTheBeth

        Since we’re all in agreement that Joe doesn’t seem to be “in his right mind”, perhaps law enforcement in his community should think about removing his access to deadly weapons, and maybe point out to him that violent crime is on the decline (in spite of horrendous stories like this) so maybe he could stop being so afraid (what does he think he’s protecting his family from exactly?? People like him?) and just calm down.

        • godblessusa

          He’s not afraid, per se. He simply derives his sense of manhood from his arsenal of weaponry.

          • Sirk

            In other words, a small penis?

          • NepotismIsDomesticTerrorism

            Please, no anatomical references below the neck on Joe Da Plumber. My stomach cannot take anything south of Joe Da Plumber’s shoulders.

        • Me

          we should do the same for you. take away the knives, forks, spoons, cars, trucks, food and everything else. that way YOU DON’T HURT ANYONE.

          • ShesTheBeth

            Ah, yes, the old “anything can kill” argument. Of course, knives, forks, spoons, cars, etc. are all initially designed for other purposes besides killing people. There is only one purpose for a guy like Joe to want a gun… not for sport, but to feel safe from whatever he’s afraid of. If there was less fear, there would be less violence and definitely less of a need to feel protected. The problem is the vicious cycle of
            fear, compounded with deadly weapons. Take away the common man’s most immediate, deadly problem first (namely weapons), then work on the fear issue. Violence would subside, along with it the need to feel protected.

    • Gowdy_The_Pinhead

      repigliKKKlans

  • gaylib

    What a revolting waste of humanity, if you could even be considered human. You are vile and disgusting. Seriously, you take the cake.

  • EnuffBull

    Joe the Plumber, your 2nd amendment doesn’t take away my 1st amendment right to call you a c#nt.

    • The Skeptical Chymist

      That comment is so disrespectful to c#nts everywhere. Joe the Plumber is much worse than that.

    • linda maddox

      Oh, SNAP!

    • Clell65619

      What did a c#nt ever do to you?

      • Rick McCallister

        F#cked him pretty badly.

    • MsValerie

      Don’t insult that part of my anatomy by comparing it to Joe the Plumber, please!

    • Aldo Elmnight

      I bet you have a liberal arts degree.

      • qcubed63

        I bet you couldn’t graduate the tenth grade.

        • TI-122

          Tenth grade? you do go on complimentin’ The Plumma.

      • EnuffBull

        No matter what my degree is, I’m sure I hold one degree more — and many more active, reasoning brain cells — than you.

        • Me

          very doubtful.

          • EnuffBull

            Oh, stop being the party of “No” and accept the facts.

            Wake up and smell the coffee, Mrs. Bueller. It’s a fool’s paradise. “Joe” is just leading you down the primrose path.

  • Michael Rowe

    You are possibly the most disgusting person on the public scene today, Joe Congratulations. Ladies and gentlemen of the the Right, this is your brain on plumber’s crack.

    • NepotismIsDomesticTerrorism

      “You are possibly the most disgusting person on the public scene today, Joe…”
      Not even close, Rowe. Joe Da Plumber’s just a chump.
      In the category of Most Disgusting Person on the Public Scene Today, try, instead and in no particular order:
      Charlie Koch;
      Better Dead Than Ted;
      Fat Tony Scalia;
      Roger Ailes;
      Chuckie Schumer;
      Michael “Spanky” Burgess;
      Steve “Calves” King;
      Davy Koch;
      Jennifer Rubin;
      Crazy Louie Gohmert;
      Al Grayson, Gohmert’s brother by a Floridian mother;
      Chris Matthews;
      Donald Tokowitz (google it);
      Newt “Three Wives, Three Religions” Gingrich;
      Richard Milhous Cheney;
      Cheney’s personal attack puppy, Addington;
      Shelly Adelson of Judea (Or is it Samaria? Never can remember.);
      Megan “Charge, Kids! Charge!” McArdle;
      John P. Normanson (google it);
      Michelle Bachmann (Grayson’s sister by a Minnesota mother);
      Willie Kristol; and,
      Of course, without a doubt,
      El Lardo,
      Buffalo Butt,
      The Obese Drug Addict,
      With Power on Loan,
      From Big Pharma,
      Rush Limbaugh and his three (soon to be four?) ex-wives.

      • sunshipballoons

        Scalia’s nickname is Nino, not Tony.

        • NepotismIsDomesticTerrorism

          Fat Tony, in honor of his mentor, leader, and financial rabbi: Fat Tony Salerno.

          • sunshipballoons

            I don’t like Scalia, but he has little in common, except perhaps appearance and familial nation of origin, with mob bosses. That said, if you’re going to look at the Supreme Court as the Genovese family, I think Scalia is Vincent Gigante (the actual boss in the 70s) and Salenro is Roberts (the front boss). Y’know, because Scalia is the real leader of the court’s far right, but Roberts is the day-to-day face of the right.

    • David Bovard

      Dont insult a Plumber Dick Weed !

      • CentralScruntinizer

        He’s not a plumber, and never was. He was an unlicensed plumbers assistant and is now he works for Chrysler.

        • Tmiller

          And now, he’s unemployed…..If all goes as one would think after making such crude remarks!

      • willcommentforfood

        Little David, are you trying to get your comments banned with autoswearing? So charming.

    • Me

      there is no difference between the Right or the Left.

  • Jester

    If mental illness is the problem why don’t conservatives back Universal Healthcare; or even Obamacare for that matter?

    • Jack

      Because mental illness isn’t the problem. The problem is the mindless proliferation of guns, and how gun laws are so lax even someone who is clearly dangerous to himself and everyone around him can legally buy three guns and lots of ammo. The gun fondlers bloviate about “tyranny” and “liberty” and hope we don’t notice that they consider their right to be armed to the teeth to be more important than our right to keep breathing.

      • David Bovard

        Are You the President of the Sheeple People ?

        • Sirk

          You need to stop now. You are in over your head, as evidenced by your inane comments. How old are you? 12? 13? Go do your homework. Maybe you’ll turn out okay someday.

      • Jester

        I don’t think it’s either one exclusively. He had 3 concealable handguns with extended magazines even though he had obvious mental health problems. Also in all these mass shootings it is never a sane person that fires on the innocent.

    • NepotismIsDomesticTerrorism

      Jester,
      To answer your reasonable, responsible, mature question, I offer this line from the legendary Thomas “I Wasn’t Aldous” Huxley:
      “Logical consequences are the scarecrows of fools (see Plumber, Joe Da) and the beacons of wise men (women, too).”

    • Kaptain_Kool

      Lol Obamacare.

  • whatdidhesay

    This article tells you all you need to know about the conservative mindset – give lip service to the concerns of others, but don’t offer to actually do anything about it, and don’t take any responsibility for your part in it. This perfectly showcases the raging, boiling hatred at the heart of the conservative – a complete inability to be sensitive to others, a stubborn and immature insistence that he has “God” or “freedom” on his side and the rest of you can lump it. Conservatives will leave you dead on the side of the road if they feel like it, since because you disagree with them you’re “anti-Murican” and don’t deserve to live. What Joe is saying is – “F*** off if you think you’re going to do anything about guns.” The NRA and people like Joe aren’t interested in the collateral damage from allowing so many guns loose. They don’t care. Matt Barber, the proprietor of this site, isn’t interested in the number of gays who are beaten and murdered as a result of crazy people acting on the hateful impulses and slanderous antigay misinformation that Barber provides them. Conservatives take no responsibility for anything. 100,000+ dead in Iraq? Not our fault. Economy collapsed? Not our fault. Gays killed in Africa after we helped them write and pass antigay laws? Not our fault. Climate change? What climate change? Gun deaths? Sorry, but I still get my AK-47 and my AR-15 and my Uzi. Not my fault. All this article shows is that Joe is desperate to hold on to his 15 minutes, and he’s a nasty man to boot.

    • Martin Vorbrodt

      You sir, are a glittering jewel of colossal ignorance.

      • whatdidhesay

        Like all conservatives, you make insults with nothing to back it up.

      • willcommentforfood

        It must be hard to stew all day, get paid by the RW, and come up with names like Vorbordt, and insults that sound faintly smart like “glittering jewel”. Thank the lord that I have a real career instead of being an absurd RW operative dolt.

      • Silver_Witch

        I often find that people that post this type of statements are projecting – Martin…I think you are projecting. It might be you that is the “colossal jewel”.

    • David Bovard

      You poor little Neglected child you !

      • Cindy Nord Mayes

        He asks for facts and you provide insults….can I say typical without your panties getting in a wad? I wouldn’t want you to be uncomfortable in your not being able to provide any kind of backup to your claims and cry.

    • Me

      so in other words A TYPICAL POLITICIAN.

  • http://gripernews.blogspot.com Wisco

    Is he trying the Sarah Palin method for tea party fame and fortune? The way that works is that you say something astonishingly stupid, then play the victim card when the media reports the idiocy. The right wing base just loves them a victim.

    Sadly for Samuel here, that’s not going to work for him. His 15 minutes ran out a long, long time ago. Even for the Tea Party, this clown’s a hasbeen.

  • Michael

    You sir, are a monster. God forbid something ever happen to your children you sad, afraid man.

  • chichiplus

    “Your dead children” is up there with “Let me tell you about the negro”.

    • Me

      i dont know that story. how does it go.

  • Ronald J. Ward

    While I agree that Joe the want to be plumber has every right to express his views, I don’t take him seriously as an authoritative spokesman. Why his views are even elevated by the media is a rather disturbing phenomenon.

    I too believe in protecting the 2nd amendment and I believe in my right to bare arms. However, that doesn’t mean that I agree with the ability of any and all citizens to have guns regardless of their mental capacity or criminal record. It doesn’t mean that I oppose back ground checks.

    Joe ignores that reality in his NRA kowtowing, much like the NRA and corporately owned GOP legislators that rely on spin and dishonesty while they manipulate the argument in order to appease those donors. If you recall, consistent polls showed that 70% to 90% agreed in background check reform yet the GOP unitedly flipped the bird to those voters.

    Joe The Plumber is not a legislator nor has he demonstrated any substance to his rather incoherent arguments. In fact, at any level of political punditry, he has proven to be quite the opposite. He has a right to his opinions but he shouldn’t be taken serious on any intellectual level. The media should not abet such nonsense.

  • obadiahorthodox

    Maybe I should go to his house and exercise my 2nd amendment rights and blow him away

    • tldego

      wow your an idiot! here is another mental patient with guns that should be taken away…… btw I support the right of the people to own guns but it is because of people like this more policing should be done!

    • NepotismIsDomesticTerrorism

      WRONG
      One always laughs at Joe Da Plumber.
      One NEVER threatens the existence of Joe Da Plumber or anyone who spouts a contrary opinion. NEVER.
      (Apologize for the all caps.)

  • Cinematallica

    Wait, this was written by THE Joe the Plumber? Good lord, back to obscurity with you. And don’t forget to pack your ignorance for the trip. We won’t be needing it.

    • Madam Malefactor

      Oh, it’s probably not written by him. If it is, Joe has too much time on his hands given his output. Didn’t he accept a ~union job~ on the line in a car factory? I guess maybe they’re giving him time over his breaks to write pithy pro-gun articles that make rational gun owners look foolish.

      • willcommentforfood

        I don’t believe he wrote every word, it’s too slick. I’m sure the lawyers and operatives were involved to focus “Joe” Sam, and make sure he didn’t say anything that would leave him open to a liability lawsuit. The operatives and writers were there to help make coherent paragraphs without misspellings, and fashion his babblings into coocoobird talking points, the main one being particularly nuts but very useful idiot overton window, my gun rights trump your kids’ rights to live. That was the most clear point, and it is NRA GOP extremism. Who but Joe Sam would be the most useful to make this point? It will, likely be said again, parrotted, by the NRA president within a week, just wait and see. The writing itself is far too crafted to have been done by Joe Sam by himself, he needed operative help there. Oh, to be a fly on the wall at his little meeting with the writers and operatives and lawyers would have been a hoot of hilarity of dysfunction massaged by the professional mendacity handler gang.

  • qnetter

    We’re not anti-Second-Amendment. We’re pro-Second-Amendment-as-interpreted-by-every-Supreme-Court-before-the-Reagan-Court-was-bought-by-NRA-activists.

    • CandaceTX

      Mind if I tweet that?

      Repeatedly.

  • Denise Duplinski

    Hey “Joe” – you need to learn these four words “I am an Idiot”…shut up

  • Doug A Scott

    “Your dead kids don’t trump my Constitutional rights.” Um, yes, they do. If you have a shred of decency, dead kids trump pretty much everything.

    • http://fishfearme.blogs.com/ Dave

      “…dead kids trump pretty much everything.”

      No, they don’t. That’s reality. If you want to argue that reality needs to be changed, then fine, but YOU have the decency to recognize that your wish may have negative consequences to our children too.

      • Sven Schmidt

        -_- you really have no right at this point to whine there are on average it seems at least 2 mass shootings in the states per year and yet no one has done very much to change things, security trumps your right to own guns, your so desperate and so cowardly to obsess so much over a material item, one thats only real use is to kill and you will probably never even get to do that

        • http://fishfearme.blogs.com/ Dave

          Wow, Sven, you packed a lot of nonsense into that paragraph.

          “you really have no right at this point to whine…”

          There was no whining, just pointing out a simple truth. Children die from all sorts of things every day. They are all tragedies, some preventable and others not. But we don’t reorder our society on the basis of “dead kids trump almost everything.” If that were the case there would be no autos, the leading cause of accidental death for children, or swimming pools, or poisonous chemicals manufactured.

          “security trumps your right to own guns…”

          Do you really think that taking my guns, which have never hurt anyone the whole 30 years I have owned them, will protect you from a madman like Rodger? He started with a knife, but what’s to say he wouldn’t have finished with bombs had he been denied his guns? For some reason people always seem to assume that if a murderer is denied a gun, he will always fall back to a less lethal method in response. You offer false security.

          “…your[sic] so desperate and so cowardly to obsess so much over a material item…”

          Your insults mean nothing to me because they don’t describe me. My guns are tools, and like my power saw or lawnmower I never obsess over them beyond being sure to handle them safely.

          “…one thats[sic] only real use is to kill and you will probably never even get to do that”

          Come on. Various types of target shooting, personal and home protection, and hunting game are all uses beyond killing a human. And for damn sure I certainly hope I never have to do the latter, or “get” to as you so disturbingly put it.

          • aloha43

            I think you would think differently if it was your son that was gunned down.

          • http://fishfearme.blogs.com/ Dave

            Think differently about what?

          • willcommentforfood

            Gee Dave, dense you are. Differently about the subject at hand, about kids’ right to live versus gun mayhem rights.

          • http://fishfearme.blogs.com/ Dave

            Perhaps aloha43 can answer for his/her self.

            As for you, if you want to pretend that this is about anything as stupid as “gun mayhem rights” there is no hope for you.

          • Me

            actually will, you are more dense than Dave.

          • willcommentforfood

            David, given your profound impairment, I’d love to take your guns. You see, genius, REGULATION of cars and so many other things, like seat belts, have saved lives and stopped needless deaths. All done by looking at the research to see what the data recommends, not going by beliefs and your silly ideas. I don’t give a hoot if you go hunting though lord knows I bet you aren’t good at it, and I do hope you or anyone goes to jail if they kill a human, unless after a trial it is determined that purely self defense against a criminal was involved. It’s really your first point, a pure rationalization that is proven wrong time and again, that is the most annoying. The right of children to live is far more important than the right to own and shoot a gun. I think most judges, even the Supremes will agree with me on that. The founding fathers coined pursuit of happiness the important right among other ones, and if you die young at the hand of a gun lover, well, that’s unconstitutional, the founding fathers didn’t need to get around to an Amendment to protect the right to living. The issue is how much REGULATED freedom gun lovers will have, and how does that go along with protecting our children. The IDIOTIC idea that gun owning trumps the right of children to live (a repulsive idea that is rejected by the vast majority of people) is just a slogan that Joe Sam the insensitive bully and the NRA are trying to push for cover so no more regulation ensues. You David, are part of the problem, not a constructive solution. But I will give you kudos in this last post you had for trying your civil logic fail instead of just your base, low and pathetic flaggable insults that you’ve posted all over today.

          • http://fishfearme.blogs.com/ Dave

            I am not against some regulation of guns, never said I was. What regulations would you propose?

            What regulations would you propose that would have changed this most recent mass shooting or the one at Sandy Hook?

            “The right of children to live is far more important than the right to own and shoot a gun.”

            And what of the times when a gun ensured the right of children to live?

          • Me

            i propose the removal of willcommentforfood from all of society.

          • Sven Schmidt

            thanks dave for being so clear and concise, I understand how wrong I was!

    • Me

      no they DO NOT. your dead child does not trump ANY OF MY CONSTITUTIONAL RIGHTS.

  • Lisa Dawley

    He obviously never had a family member murdered using a gun. It’s one of the most traumatic life events you can ever imagine, it impacts hundreds/thousands of people who knew the victim, and lives are never the same again. Learn to empathize and live in the skins of others before you take action.

    • RealityCheck

      My cousin was murdered by a shooting and I feel your pain…but he took out two of the assailants before they could get to his wife…BECAUSE HE WAS ARMED.

      • Jack

        So it’s the victims’ fault they were killed because they weren’t armed? Ghoul.

      • Donte McTigglesberry

        Reality Check, Do you
        actually know what happened in this situation. A lot of time people who pulls guns to protect them end up being the ones who die because they drew down. I am happy that your cousin was able to save his wife in the process, but have you ever considered the possibility that by drawing his weapon he actually sealed his own fate? It’s hard to judge the veracity of your statement and it is a total bummer that your cousin died.

  • Chip70

    Joe. You suck. Just thought I’d add my 2 cents. I hope they paid you well girl this article.

  • RealityCheck

    Guess we’ll have to throw banning knives in there as well because three did lose their lives to them. Damn inanimate objects going around killing innocent folks. I mean the NERVE of them!

    But Joe, that’s a harsh, callous way of debating Inanimate Object Control with people. I weep for their children and hope the killer is roasting in hell.

    • Jack

      So…you agree that the parents of the dead kids should STFU and stop whining about how their kids would be alive if Rodger hadn’t been able to get hold of a gun? (Three guns, actually.)

  • GoneRouge

    every gun owner, every nra defender, should suffer the pain and loss of these parents, of the parents from Sandy Hook, FU to nra defenders , this country is a disgrace, a laughing stock, evil.

    • RealityCheck

      My best friend at work’s son was in Sandy Hook, if Lanza went right instead of left her son would’ve died and even SHE knows it’s not about the gun, but the evil person firing it. You might want to remember that.

      Riddle me this genius, he killed three people with a knife…want to ban those to? Dummy.

      • Greg

        Riddle me this genius…he didn’t have to get out of his car to kill and injure the rest. Where was that good guy with a gun? The same place as every other mass shooting. They don’t exist.

        Go back to your Open Carry Nut Support Group.

      • Jay Purti

        zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

  • Pingback: Joe The Plumber: 'Your Dead Kids Don't Trump My Constitutional Rights' To Have Guns | NEWS | Phones | Nigeria Science | Technology |Computers

  • RealityCheck

    LET’S BAN ALL KNIVES! He killed three people with a knife so let’s ban them! That’ll save us all!

    • rjudge

      1. While some would like to ban all guns, no one is pushing to do so. Absolutely no one. Most people know that would be impossible. I’ve seen a number of comments from gun owners themselves who say they are just fine with more strict gun laws, notably by way of background checks.

      2. Guns can kill from afar. Knives usually don’t, not that I know of. Of those instances where they have killed from afar, I am quite sure the number of these instances is very small.

      3. Guns often kill multiple people in a single incident. While knives can do so, there aren’t that many incidents you hear about because there really aren’t that many.

      4. Guns are designed to kill. Knives are used to spread condiments like ketchup, mayo, and mustard; knives are used to slice bread and meat and fish. Knives are not designed primarily to kill.

      You’d best check your reality, pal.

      • SoSayethTheBored

        Rifles can kill from distance. Most handguns, especially in the hands of maniacs, require a closer distance to be effective.
        In this instance, 3 people were killed with knives. What are swords designed for?

        • rjudge

          I’m no expert at all on the range, but I will say for a fact that I am sure any gun can shoot a bullet quite a bit further than one can throw a knife. If the person is a maniac, as you suggest, then they probably can’t throw a knife at all and reach their intended target, but I bet that even being just several yards away, they can pull the trigger and hit the target.

          Yes, I know 3 people were killed with knives. I am quite sure that is the reason “reality” check made his comment. But, there is a huge difference in the killing capabilities of a gun vs. knives, and there is a huge difference between what these 2 devices were designed for.

          In the past, swords were designed to cut and kill. I don’t see your point. I think it is even less likely one would be able to throw a sword from far away and kill someone, as a gun with a bullet can.

          And, again, I will get back to my point that most people are not calling for the removal of all guns. They are asking that background checks become more strict, as well as other gun laws.

          If swords start to become a weapon of mass killings in this country, perhaps some laws ought to be enacted about who can actually purchase and own swords. It’s like Sudafed. You used to be able to openly buy it off drugstore shelves. Now, at least where I live, it is kept behind a locked cabinet, and purchases are tracked because Sudafed contains a chief ingredient for making crystal meth. It’s like fertilizer. After the OK City bombing, laws were enacted about the amount and type of fertilizer that people can buy. Laws do change with the times.

          • SoSayethTheBored

            Well, really, I was just playing devil’s advocate against the points you initially made. Just showing some counter possibilities. There are laws against swords in most states already. My point was less about throwing the sword and more about them being made purely for killing. Most rational people aren’t opposed to tighter checks on people buying weapons. But then most rational people also don’t trust Government when they look to reduce the people’s freedoms (for the people’s own good, of course). It’s a tough situation.

          • rjudge

            Well, I’m glad you were just playing devil’s advocate, but there have been many, many posting on various websites in the past few days who are obviously rabid gun nuts, like this joe the plumber. They have no sympathy for the people who lost friends and family.

            I think that most rational people indeed are not opposed to tighter background checks, but certain people in Congress drove the vote to do so the other way, even after Sandy Hook.

            I don’t fully trust the government to do everything, but I think many things it does really are for our collective good.

    • Greg

      I’ve got a challenge for you lack of reality. You and I hook up. I get a gun and you get a knife. We stand 20 yards apart. Someone yells go and we both use our weapons. Guess who dies. Don’t be a coward. I’m serious.

      • SoSayethTheBored

        How about a scenario where we both show up. You have nothing. I have a big, sharp, combat knife (and, not to pat myself on the back or anything, I’m adept with it). Still wanna go?

    • sc42

      Well since the 2nd amendment says nothing about guns, it speaks of arms. I want missiles, grenades, and bombs. Why are those illegal?

  • Greg

    Hey joe, you’re irrelevant. Who even gives this guy the space to write in? What a waste of bandwidth

  • ok_paulo_ok

    Joe the Plumber may I suggest where to shove your plunger!

  • moe_i_am

    news flash: your constitutional rights don’t trump anyone’s INALIENABLE HUMAN RIGHTS TO LIFE.
    any mouth breathing, beta-minus, fuktarded, red neck waste of human flesh who doesn’t like that elementary principle can do ahead and drink drano and die screaming in a fire. You’re contribution to humanity as a CO2 producer is quite obviously worthless. maybe as fertilizer you will be more productive.

    • SoSayethTheBored

      You hold the constitution accountable for all gun related crime?

      • moe_i_am

        you must be a right wing extremist republican. only one such as that would take a simple statement and twist it.

        No doctrine, regardless of source or material trumps an individuals inalienable human right to life. NONE.
        plain. simple. period.

  • orogeny

    The semi-literate ramblings of a desperate nonentity. Joe had his 15 minutes of fame and got tossed aside. Now, he’ll do ANYTHING to get some of that back…if only the ability to earn a living signing autographs at back country gun shows.

  • B Martin

    Sam, Joe, whatever your name is these days, you are probably the lowest form of life on this planet. Not to be hyperbolic, but you are literally the stupidest person in the country and you should find some rock somewhere to crawl back under. Read the preamble to the Constitution that you reference but have never read. The purpose of the document is to “form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity.” That trumps all, even your silly gun fetish.

    • David Bovard

      You would not have any of that without the Gun !

      • Clell65619

        David, we all know you just use your guns to make up for your micro-penis…

        Just go back to stroking them and leave this conversation to the adults.

      • CentralScruntinizer

        Yes: Guns in the hands of trained professionals in the armed forces. Not guns in the hands of frightened over-compensating trolls like you.

      • Ronaldo Blevins

        Who the F^CK are you people. Where do you get off talking that crap!! No an AR15 or AK47 or 60 cal. or 50 cal. will not make your little willy grow and they certainly will not make a man out of you David, or Martin, or guest. That ship has sailed for you three you’ll never be real men! Central Scrutinizer these people are too afraid to put their lives in danger and pull the trigger for their country in the armed forces.

    • Me

      and right now the gov. has failed to form a more perfect union, justice, tranquility or even promote general welfare.

  • sdk

    This ought to win Joe some fine, lengthy beatings.

  • backell

    Here’s what you and your gun-nut right-wing friends miss. Gun control doesn’t mean you have to choose between gun rights and children getting killed.

    You can still have your guns and we can have gun control. If you would stop writing brain-dead fuel long enough to stop and think, you would realize that.

    • David Bovard

      shove it !

      • backell

        No. It’s time for people like you to stop spreading paranoid ignorance. How many people have to die? What if it was your kid? Would you say shove it?

        • Me

          how many? about 3 millions would be a nice start. this planet is way overcrowded. we do not have enough resources for them all.

          • backell

            Yes, murder is such a great thing to joke about.

      • Sunkissed

        Aww, David, were the people not feeding you enough in your troll cage? Go back to it and maybe you’ll get some cheese to go with your whine.

      • willcommentforfood

        “I need somebody to shove” -Soul Asylum. David, your silliness is beyond belief, poor little baby. You think coming here and displaying your bad manners, poor social ability, low education, bullying, insensitivity, and foul behaviors is going to win you points? Bathetic.

    • demz taters

      It’s no mystery why they’re are terrified at the prospect of keeping guns away from crazy people.

  • Thomas B Robson

    This person, like Sarah Palin, will say anything to pretend relevance, Why does his mental defect deserve or need recognition?

  • rlpincus

    Imagine being so self-deluded that your first thought upon yet another mass murder is to hot-poke the parents of the dead. Oh, Joe, your God must be thrilled with your compassion.

  • lsam53

    What a disgusting creature this Wurlitzer is! How’s that union job going? Anything to keep your lazy butt in the news, eh Joe? Another coward with a gun.

  • bojimbo26

    Another Alex Jones .

  • SorryNotSorry

    Truly, this is a new low.

  • JB

    I was briefly horrified, and then I noticed that everyone else reading this is horrified too. That helped a little. Still, I can’t say I would be disappointed if those “dead kids” and you swapped places, bud.

  • Pingback: Joe The Plumber To Grieving Parents: 'Your Dead Kids' Less Important Than My Gun Rights

  • Nicko Thime

    We need to wipe human feces like this idjut off the bottoms of our collective shoes.

  • Pingback: Joe The Plumber Tells Isla Vista Shooting Victims’ Families ‘Your Dead Kids Don’t Trump My Constitutional Rights’ - British News Cloud

  • The Skeptical Chymist

    The reason I have never allowed firearms in my home is that I know the odds of children killing themselves by accident or on purpose increase dramatically if firearms are present in the home. Rethink your position, Joe. By keeping firearms in your home, you are making it more likely (not less likely) that you will lose one or more of your children to gun violence. The statistics on this are undeniable.

  • http://instantnyc12.tumblr.com/ Terrence Boogie Monster

    “As harsh as this sounds – your dead kids don’t trump my Constitutional rights.”

    Yeah, you’re a douche for saying that. I agree that guns shouldn’t necessarily be gotten rid of altogether but neither should they be so easy to get a hold of. You being a parent should know better than to make a comment like the one I just quoted from you.

  • http://BarbWire.com/ Brian Fitzpatrick

    Predictably, the article you link to discusses militias, but simply ignores the active words in the Second Amendment: “the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.”

    • The Skeptical Chymist

      The link refers to a well-researched text on the meaning of the words, as described by the founders in other communications. It does not ignore the “shall not be infringed”, but places it in historical context. This is something that the Roberts court forgot when it made its decision.

      • http://BarbWire.com/ Brian Fitzpatrick

        So what does the book say about “shall not be infringed?”

        • NepotismIsDomesticTerrorism

          “Shall not be infringed”.
          See “machine gun”.

          • http://BarbWire.com/ Brian Fitzpatrick

            You’re absolutely right, according to the Constitution, we should all be permitted to own artillery.

    • Terry Shea

      Actually, that section is directly addressed in paragraph 7: “…Over the course of the next 30 years, they set out to do nothing less than change the meaning of the Second Amendment, so that its final phrase — “shall not be infringed” — referred to an individual right to keep and bear arms, rather than a collective right for the common defense.”

      What’s more, the focus on militias is the very core of the author’s position — i.e. that the framers intended the Second Amendment to refer to militias and only militias.

      • http://BarbWire.com/ Brian Fitzpatrick

        Thanks for the correction. I should have written “glossed over,” rather than ignored. Nevertheless, I reject the notion that the Second Amendment is discussing the right to bear arms only within the context of serving within a militia, or that the Heller decision disagrees with the original intent of the writers of the Constitution. The Bill of Rights is a catalog of God-given inalienable rights enjoyed by individual men that government may not justifiably take away from citizens, and self-defense is a quintessential God-given right. Interpreting the second amendment to mean the right is only possessed in the context of operating within a government-controlled entity is therefore inherently contradictory. Further, the phrase “shall not be infringed” is perhaps the strongest assertion of a limitation on government power in the Bill of Rights, and it specifically protects the right not only to bear but to “keep,” or “possess and own,” lethal weaponry. Nobody at the time even dreamed that people did not have the right to keep and bear arms. Even the author of the book, Waldman, acknowledges that at the time the Constitution was written, the entire nation was already armed, and men not only possessed the right to own weapons, they were expected to do so as a civic duty. Further, as this article points out ( http://www.heritage.org/research/reports/2014/04/the-second-amendment-and-the-inalienable-right-to-self-defense ), the father of the Constitution, James Madison, defended the private ownership of arms in Federalist 46, on the grounds that an armed citizenry can defend itself against a tyrannical central government.

        The focus of the author, Waldman, certainly is on militias, because his theme is assessing a discussion among a dozen Congressmen about militias. But that discussion takes place in 1789, after the Constitution had already been ratified and put into effect, at a time when the proper role and structure of militias was a hot issue. The question of private ownership of weapons had already been settled in the pre-ratification debates, to which Federalist 46 was a contribution.

    • NepotismIsDomesticTerrorism

      Very sloppy, Fitz.
      Terry got you with graph seven.
      The score now reads:
      Terry 1
      Fitz (-1) (point lost for errant allegation and unacceptable sloppiness)

      • http://BarbWire.com/ Brian Fitzpatrick

        Thanks, Neppy. Don’t miss my reply to Terry, which addresses substantive issues.

    • Jack

      And naturally you ignore the rest of the Second Amendment: “A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free
      State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be
      infringed.”

      Last I checked, someone who walks into a gun store, buys an arsenal and drives up and down the street shooting anyone he doesn’t like doesn’t sound like part of “a well regulated Militia” to me.

      • http://BarbWire.com/ Brian Fitzpatrick

        Thanks, Jack, and it’s a pity one of Rodger’s roommates didn’t have a firearm, or he could have stopped the murder spree before it took even one life. Don’t miss my reply to Terry, which addresses substantive issues you might want to chew on.

        • NepotismIsDomesticTerrorism

          Didn’t miss it, Fitz. It carried about as much worthwhile hair as your veritable dome. Offered so little in that reply, did you, that it could not be missed.
          True, IF the kid’s roomie had a firearm, he could have lit up his backside.
          Also true that IF ifs and butts were candies and nuts, you’d be stacking shelves at Wal-Mart after such a feeble reply.
          But you’ve got “juice” here at barbwire (love to see the pics that got you your “juice”), so you escape deserved punishment for such a pathetic response and Wal-Mart need not open up five or six aisles for you to stock from 11 p.m. to 6 a.m.

          • http://BarbWire.com/ Brian Fitzpatrick

            My dome isn’t veritable, it’s actual, like one of the great domes of Yosemite. It’s nice in some ways — it’s easy to care for, so it saves a lot of time. When I had hair, it was very thin, fine and wavy, and impossible to control.

            Here’s the response I was referring to, which I cannot find on the thread, so you may not have found it either:

            Thanks for the correction. I should have written “glossed over,”
            rather than ignored. Nevertheless, I reject the notion that the Second
            Amendment is discussing the right to bear arms only within the context
            of serving within a militia, or that the Heller decision disagrees with
            the original intent of the writers of the Constitution. The Bill of
            Rights is a catalog of God-given inalienable rights enjoyed by
            individual men that government may not justifiably take away from
            citizens, and self-defense is a quintessential God-given right.
            Interpreting the second amendment to mean the right is only possessed in
            the context of operating within a government-controlled entity is
            therefore inherently contradictory. Further, the phrase “shall not be
            infringed” is perhaps the strongest assertion of a limitation on
            government power in the Bill of Rights, and it specifically protects the
            right not only to bear but to “keep,” or “possess and own,” lethal
            weaponry. Nobody at the time even dreamed that people did not have the
            right to keep and bear arms. Even the author of the book, Waldman,
            acknowledges that at the time the Constitution was written, the entire
            nation was already armed, and men not only possessed the right to own
            weapons, they were expected to do so as a civic duty. Further, as this
            article points out ( http://www.heritage.org/resear
            ), the father of the Constitution, James Madison, defended the private
            ownership of arms in Federalist 46, on the grounds that an armed
            citizenry can defend itself against a tyrannical central government.

            The
            focus of the author, Waldman, certainly is on militias, because his
            theme is assessing a discussion among a dozen Congressmen about
            militias. But that discussion takes place in 1789, after the
            Constitution had already been ratified and put into effect, at a time
            when the proper role and structure of militias was a hot issue. The
            question of private ownership of weapons had already been settled in the
            pre-ratification debates, to which Federalist 46 was a contribution.

          • NepotismIsDomesticTerrorism

            “God-given”?
            OK.
            (shrug)
            Which God?
            Whose religion?
            If Christian, which brand of the Bible?
            If Christian Bible, which Testament?
            God? Jesus Christ? Holy Spirit? Holy Ghost? (Does Holy Ghost mean Wiccan or Salem trial redux?)
            God. Fine. Sure. Legit.
            But which God?
            Does America have a National God? A National Religion? A National Religious Text? Included in the U.S. Constitution? Articles of Confederation don’t count.
            Or, maybe, just maybe, God’s a little bit like Baskin-Robbins (or insert your brand of Dixie-based) ice cream?
            A whole lotta flavors from which to chose?
            Each different from the other?
            With different texts?
            Even different testaments of the same text?
            Different interpretations of those testaments?
            None mandated by our Founding Fathers?
            None formally dictated in our U.S. Constitution?
            Believe. Disbelieve. It’s all good, right? You know, freedom. Freedom to do X. Or freedom not to do Y. Or freedom to do some of X and a little of Y.
            Or are you on a “Mission from God?” And, if so, are you backed by a super band “powerful enough to turn goat (urine) into gasoline”?

          • http://BarbWire.com/ Brian Fitzpatrick

            Let me take these one at a time. On second thought …

            C’mon, Neppie, you chide me for a lack of substance in my response, I point you to the substantive response, and then you don’t engage with it at all? But that’s okay, religion is far more interesting a topic anyway. Do you really think there’s a serious debate about who is the real God, if not the God of the Bible?

          • NepotismIsDomesticTerrorism

            Fitz,
            You’ve got “God-given” listed twice in your Post of Self-Justification.
            To wit:
            “The Bill of Rights is a catalog of God-given inalienable rights…”
            “…and self-defense is a quintessential God-given right.”
            You wrote your own post, did you not?
            You used “God-given” as your justification, did you not?
            I ask you a few fact-based questions about “God”, the U.S. Constitution, and America, and you go with the “don’t engage” shtick.
            These are your words and your ideas, son.
            Either you wrote ‘em or you didn’t.
            If it’s the latter, you claim Victim; if it’s the former, you claim … well, what, exactly?

          • http://BarbWire.com/ Brian Fitzpatrick

            Sorry, Neppie, I directed just one question in response to what appeared to be a drug-induced nonsense eruption. You’ll need to be a bit more focused if you want to have a conversation with me. Go ahead and pick a question or two, and we can start from there.

          • NepotismIsDomesticTerrorism

            Fitz,
            Never liked Dodgers, Los Angeles or in debates. Waste my time. Can’t have it both ways with me.
            Remember these words: “Either you wrote ‘em or you didn’t. If it’s the latter, you claim Victim; if it’s the former, you claim … well, what, exactly?”
            Well, what, exactly???
            Was a bit interesting chatting with you. Now, it’s no longer interesting at all. (Too much Tommy Lasorda, too little Pee Wee Reese {RIP} in your game.)
            Wish you the best.

  • winochick

    This letter is exactly why the GOP is dying. Good Riddance.

  • Pingback: Joe The Plumber Tells Elliot Rodger’s Victims’ Families ‘Your Dead Kids Don’t Trump My Constitutional Rights’ - British News Cloud

  • steveden

    Your 15 minutes have long been up. Go away you sad little man.

  • Martin Vorbrodt

    So let me get this straight. It is perfectly acceptable to stand on still-warm bodies of Newton children and scream for more gun control, but it is despicable to take the opposing position in a similar situation. You leftists sure take hypocrisy to a whole new level don’t you?

    • rickne

      Your logic is pretty flawed gun control didn’t kill the children in Sandy Hook nor the people at UC Santa Barbra so there is no hypocricy.

    • Jack

      Guess you missed the part where he told a grieving father to STFU.

      • Prof B

        This

  • Pingback: "Joe the Plumber": "Your dead kids don’t trump my Constitutional rights." :: The Political Carnival

  • dreamblue

    Um, Joe? I think you forget the most important right of all…the right to life. In fact, it goes something like this…”the right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.” Which one is listed first? Right to life. But just like every other conservative, you think the right to life extends only to preborn children. Once they are here, the second amendment trumps all.

    You and your ilk are truly messed up. No, your right to own a firearm does not trump someone else’s right to their lives. No right is absolute, all must be practiced responsibly. Grow up….you cons act like little boys who don’t want to share. I really hope that you get your guns locked away before your own kids use them on you or each other.

    • Chad Sedam

      More importantly the bill of rights does not give anyone the right to own a gun. that is why it is constitution to ban guns and regulate them, otherwise anyone could any gun made.

  • mikelartist

    There is nothing in this for you Yellow Belly Wurzelbacher. No shekels. No fame. No mercy. There is plenty of shame and exacting karma coming however. Enjoy.

  • Pingback: Joe The Plumber Tells Parents Of Elliot Rodger’s Victims ‘Your Dead Kids Don’t Trump My Constitutional Rights’ To Own Guns - British News Cloud

  • Dave W

    Wow. Lot’s of Joe “The Plumber” haters on here but he has a very valid point. He may have a harsh way to make it… but there is no crime in that. Everyone’s rights need to be protected and we surely do not need more control and regulation by the government. THAT is when you stop living in a free country.

    • Jack

      Whatever valid point he might have been attempting to make vanished the moment he told a grieving father “your dead kids don’t trump my Constitutional rights.” I have the feeling this is his “I want to tell you one more thing I know about the Negro” moment.

    • jonnyace

      What’s his point? What constitutional rights of his are being taken away by rational people wanting mentally ill people spewing hate manifestos not be able to legally purchase semi automatic weapons? His point is bunk. Who asked him anyway? It’s an attention grab, at grieving families expense. Lowest of the low Joe….

    • Prof B

      Yeah, I hate the guy. He has no more redeeming qualities than a Westboro protester by self-promoting this way. Time and place.

    • Chad Sedam

      No, his point is not valid in anyway shape or form. There is no constitutional right to own a gun. It says you have the right to bear arms (note: it does not say gun), it also allows for a well regulated militia (key word in that phrase is regulated). The Preamble to the Declaration Of The United States Of America states “… with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.” Yes , that does trump your imaginary right to own a gun.

      • Dave W

        He has a valid point even if you don’t agree with the details…

    • Robert Mauro

      It isn’t a valid point, because its major premise is that “the left” and “everyone not on the far right” is trying to ban all guns. That is false, thus his whole premise falls apart.

      The SANE ones of us want:
      (1) training/certification required before purchase (LIKE WITH A CAR) – because MANY gun deaths are caused by legal gun owners who have no clue how to handle them

      (2) no mentally insane people walking into Walmart and buying a bunch of guns and ammo.

      (3) Close the numerous gun loopholes for online and gun show sales.

      Is that too much to ask for?

      You also said: “Everyone’s rights need to be protected”

      EXCEPT, he states that his perceived gun rights trump the right to life. The CORNERSTONE of our Constitution is THAT right (and liberty and the pursuit of happiness) above all else. THOSE rights trump all others.

      Asking for the 3 simple things I posted above is HIGHLY reasonable.

      But those of you who believe braindead idiots (or paid shills – whichever he is) like “Joe the Plumber” and the NRA believe that we want otherwise. I got my rifle “marksman”/”advanced proficiency” certification (and the same on shotgun and crossbow), and my permit, AND took a certification course, and requisite background check. I had no problem with that. Why not make that SIMPLE task mandatory for all gun purchases?

      It won’t deter all criminals, but it will deter SOME (such as this kid) – and the “burden” on the rest of us will be negligible (which I know, BECAUSE I ACTUALLY WENT THROUGH IT). It is time we close the loopholes and do this in a reasonable fashion that protects people’s rights to guns, yet protects the rest of us who do or do not have guns as well.

      Here’s a little touted fact. Most gun injuries and deaths in this country are by people who legally have a gun, but don’t know anything about using one. Shot their friend. Shot a neighbor. Shot a spouse. “Gun went off (because they didn’t know how to handle it) and shot _____”. Kid shot themselves (because idiot parent doesn’t know how to store a gun and ammo). Kid shot kid’s friend (because idiot parent doesn’t know how to store a gun and ammo). ALL of those have a high chance of being avoided with my three simple points.

      Stop listening to idiots like “Joe the Moron” and the NRA’s campaign to support their gun lobby by pushing more sales.

  • Danny

    It’s really weird. Gun control is strawmanned to hell and back by certain people (NRA and their lackies) so that conservatives see it as total ban of guns.

    Mr Wurzelbacher here acknowledges that the guy might have been mentally ill. There have been attempts to implement background checks to scan for these people but certain people (the NRA and their lackies) strawmanned that into extinction too.

    So now we have people asking not judge all gun owners as heartless bastards (thought you could’ve fooled me with ‘your dead kids don’t trump my Constitutional rights’) and to blame mental health while preventing people with mental health to be screened. You can’t have it both ways.

  • richard stevens

    Joe “The Scumbag” Wurzelbacher is a sad excuse for a human being.

    • Robert Mauro

      I always assumed he simply wasn’t a human being. ;-)

  • roooth

    There you have it, ladies and gentlemen, White Male Entitlement, with all it’s profound and deadly ignorance on full display.

    Yes, this monument to white trash ignorance really does believe his right to a gun supersedes another American’s right to their own life.

    Yes, they really do think that way. Ignorant narcissists who believe in the racial and gender entitlement of being born white guys.

    • Michelle Kirkwood

      Ha ha ha ha ha! That is SO true—these dudes could care less about having a gun just to protect themselves—-they just want a gun because it makes them feel powerful,like it’s part of their manhood or something. That’s all this hollering and ranting and raving is about. And this Joe guy is one insensitive MF to boot on top of that.

      • willcommentforfood

        Have you seen the video of the RW leg in Idaho that allows packing in the Leg? Makes even these fools afraid of themselves and each other, very funny until something does happen which of course it will and then will they re-examine their ideas, no, they are never wrong about anything.

  • David Bovard

    Say what you will,but the gun built this country and the gun keeps it safe from those that want to destroy it , so Joe, you are right on !

    • Jack

      And any grieving parents should STFU, right?

    • jonnyace

      How is he right on? What constitutional rights are in jeopardy by wanting the already in place mental health background checks to actually be effective when a mentally ill loon who is spewing hate seeks to buy three automatic weapons? Why is it worth dead kids over Joe’s perceived rights violations for me to want the police to have known that Eliot Rodger had recently purchased weapons intend to kill weeks before they knocked on his door to check on him?

  • Doris Sigg

    you are an idiot

  • Tonya Chamberlain

    I love this. I am also a parent and my heart bleeds for the lost lives and the families left behind, and I understand that in their grief they are looking for someone or something to blame. Its human nature. But I’m so sick of people blaming guns and the NRA. It’s the people behind the shootings that are the problem NOT the guns. If our rights are taken away, the crazies and criminals WILL arm themselves and the rest of us will be left defenseless.

    • Prof B

      You should care about this. I’m a gun owner and I think this was completely out of line.

    • Chad Sedam

      If you really cared about the mentally ill getting guns would you support background checks at every point of sale, private or
      public?

    • Michelle Kirkwood

      @tonya_chamberlain:disqus
      Okay but the thing is—NOBODY said ONE damn thing about ANYBODY’S rights been taken away for ANYTHING. That’s not going to happen. What part of that do you NOT get? I blame the all-too easy access of guns to anybody psycho and nut who can get their hands on one. Let’s be real—the guy at Sandy Hook would not have been able to kill as many people as he did, or even kill period, if he didn’t have access to a gun in the first place. And paranoid gun nuts like you need to stop equating possible restrictions on guts to crazy people to “having your gun rights taken away” because,once again, they are NOT even the same thing! Reality—just because it’s legal to own a gun does NOT mean that everybody needs one, pain and simple. A mentally ill person sure as heck dosen’t need one.

      And no, NOBODY’S gun rights trump the lives of anybody. I don’t even know why Joe, with his stupid, ignorant self, even put the two together. Both of you sound too ridiculous to see past your paranoid fears about your guns getting taken away (which hasn’t happened at all, so stop saying that.) Joe is wrong as hell for hijacking a tragedy to proclaim “I don’t want my guns taken away.” Sorry, but that wasn’t even the time to say something like that, and it was inappropiate and just plain insensitive as hell.

  • jonnyace

    Uh, thanks Joe, but I think I’ll wait for Pat Sajak to chime in before I decide what to think here. Tool.

  • bobfellerfan

    Another mentally ill conservative wackjob with no compassion for people who lose loved ones to gun violence. Conservatism is a mental illness

  • godblessusa

    Perhaps law enforcement should simply remove all the weapons from any male with a tiny penis…like Joe the Plumber.

  • Matt Freeman

    This is repulsive. Wurzelbacher should be ashamed of writing it and Barbwire should be ashamed to publish it.

    • Scott Lanway

      They’re conservative fanatics. They have no sense of shame.

  • Bobby Duplenty

    Sincerely…fuck you.

  • kaystiel

    gun ownership is at an all time low, but the 6%-10% who do have guns are stockpiling, if the media keep hyping a need to weaponize it keeps gun manufacturers in business, and incidentally, more gun owners die by their own hands themselves/relatives than by random strangers.

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  • isawsasquatch

    What a thoughtful piece. Joe is surely a wonderful father and husband.

    • Scott Lanway

      I hope I’m not the only one who saw the sarcasm dripping from that comment.

  • Pingback: Joe the (Not) Plumber to UCSB Parents: ‘My Gun Rights are More Important Than Your Dead Kids’ | Americans Against the Tea Party

  • http://lcchoppers.com/ Lucas Co. Choppers

    This is despicable. There is not a single redeeming element to it.

    • Robert Mauro

      Sure there is…

      And I call it “the comments section” where so many of us are taking this loser idiot to task. ;-)

  • Mindy Cameron

    Total asswipe.

  • Froi Vincenton

    The leftists want to ban guns, while their mentally ill leftist comrades and sympathizers, including Obama voters, mass-murder people in gun-free zones using guns that their comrades want to ban. How cool is that?

    • http://www.last.fm/user/genx-ed Robert Dobbs

      Have you ever considered psychiatric medication?

      • Froi Vincenton

        I think you should. My comment clearly offended your weak brain(less).

      • Froi Vincenton

        You should seek it. You need it.

      • Froi Vincenton

        My reply to a commenter on Mediate:

        “Whether guns in America were banned or not, the madman would still execute his plan. Did you, guys, read his Manifesto? FYI, I live in a society where access to guns is highly restricted– PHILIPPINES– so I fuckin’ know what I am talking about. When the government imposed a TOTAL GUN BAN in 2010, several journalists and innocent people were murdered because they were unable to defend themselves against a political madman who is a Muslim.”

        • http://www.last.fm/user/genx-ed Robert Dobbs

          Thanks for share.

        • jonnyace

          Point? This guy was too shy/awkward/ messed up to talk to a woman. How was he going to find and purchase semi automatics on the black market? Way easier for him to purchase them legally, obviously, because that’s what he did.

          The debate over banning guns is long over. Your side won. Nobody realistically is looking to ban them outright. So why is it wrong for us to not want mentally ill people with fragile egos and hate manifestos not to have them?

          • Froi Vincenton

            The point is, empirical evidence and reality prove that gun ban doesn’t work and will only empower potential tyrants.

          • jonnyace

            What about empowering reading comprehension? Read what I posted about gun bans. Try again.,.

          • Robert Mauro

            NO ONE but totally crazy people are talking about banning guns outright.
            The SANE ones of us want:
            (1) training/certification required before purchase (LIKE WITH A CAR) – because MANY gun deaths are caused by legal gun owners who have no clue how to handle them

            (2) no mentally insane people walking into Walmart and buying a bunch of guns and ammo.

            (3) Close the numerous gun loopholes for online and gun show sales.

            Is that too much to ask for?

            Of course, the INSANE people don’t want to hear that – and pretend we want gun BANS. The reality is, those people are insane.

            Where do you fit again?

          • Sirk

            I believe I just read that in England 2011 there were 8 gun deaths. In the US something like 8000.

      • Sirk

        Then he would be MORE inclined to act on his impotent, self-righteous hatred. I would be interested in knowing why they insist on parroting the lie that gun control means nobody will have guns…

    • SorryNotSorry

      Wow, you are big with the stupid.

    • Michelle Kirkwood

      @Froi

      Look, idiot, thee are certain guns that do NOT need to be out there on the streets. Shotguns and pistols are find and legal, but NOBODY needs to have AKs or Ar-15 or ANY kind of military weapons out on the street. Why? Because they’re war weapons, and if you’re not overseas fighting a war, what the hell do you need one for, then? You don’t! You sound like an insane idiot who needs mental help yourself, with your crazy insane rantings. Just shut the hell up and go take your meds.

  • Froi Vincenton

    I’d would have said to the father: “Then perhaps you wished you son were stabbed to death or run over by BMW instead.”

  • Prof B

    This piece makes me want to shower and I like guns…

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  • KTA

    “As harsh as this sounds – your dead kids don’t trump my Constitutional rights.”

    And your defiant stance on this issue doesn’t trump my Constitutional rights to call you a sociopath and a gobshite.

    • Scott Lanway

      Upvoted for use of “gobshite.”

  • Froi Vincenton

    This is what I would tell the grieving father: “Then perhaps you wished you son were stabbed to death or run over by BMW instead.”

  • DelAnaya

    What’s to say? I’m still a life NRA member, but the NRA has changed. I would have defended Joe in previous times, but this mass shooting garbage has gotten out of hand and it’s time to do something. The USA has gotten to be the bizarre outlier in the developed world. We simply don’t need the mass personal weaponry that is easily available. I joined the NRA more than 40 years ago when it was the organization for hunting and target competition. It has degenerated into a political organization that defends obsolete right wing values. This out-of-control second amendment ideology has go to be brought under control. And the paranoid gun culture that sees criminals behind every tree just contributes to it.

    • cminca

      DelAnaya–
      As a member of the NRA I’m glad you realize that today’s NRA is NOT the one you joined 40 years ago.
      I am sorry but you have it wrong. The NRA isn’t a “political organization…..”. It is, first and foremost, the lobbying arm of the gun and ammunition industry.
      THAT is why they can’t talk about reasonable regulations–even when it comes to mental health. They are fighting ANYTHING that is bad for sales. Period.
      Your dues are financially meaningless. The only reason they continue to have “members” is to cover up their real reason for being.

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  • JQuellen

    Joe,

    Did it ever occur to you that is possible have reasonable laws that stop the criminally insane from having access to fire arms while not impeding you right to also have access to guns.

    That is, unless you’re nervous that you wouldn’t pass the mental muster test of who would be allowed to own a gun based on mental stability….

    • Robert Mauro

      I think it occurred to him. Which is why he’s against it. Perhaps because he may believe it would impede his right to have access to guns… for some reason… perhaps one mentioned in your first sentence. Or maybe some other reason, mentioned in your next paragraph. ;-)

      Of course, that’s just speculation.

  • Donte McTigglesberry

    “A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.”

    Hey Joe if you can tell me what this is I would be surprised. Let’s look at the sentence structure shall we? Please be mindful of the fact that this was written
    in 1789 so you may want to grab your Roget’s thesaurus.

    A well regulated Militia -> well regulated meaning – controlled so that it operates properly, Militia – “a group of people who are not part of the armed forces of a country but are trained like soldiers” Merriam-Webster What does this mean, probably something similar to the National Guard which are state funded and are commanded ultimately by the Governor of each state.
    “being necessary to the security of a free state” surrounded by comma’s would mean that it is describing the subject “Militia” meaning that a Militia is necessary to keep the “State” capitalized on purpose to enforce the “well regulated” as previously defined as well as to show the governed entity that will be regulating the Militia.

    The last piece of this one sentence is probably what is tripping you up the most “of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed”. It appears that you have the “Shall not be infringed” piece down so I won’t waste any time, but what did your English teacher tell you about descriptions separated by commas after the subject? Hopefully he/she taught you that the piece after each comma should stand on their own, thus without the descriptor the sentence would read like this: A well regulated Militia, of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be Infringed. So what does this mean, “a Militia of the people” so a body of non-military people, acting as soldiers, that is regulated has the right to keep and bear arms.

    It appears to me Joe, that you are not part of such a well regulated body of governed amateur soldiers who is attempting to uphold the freedom of a State, it appears to me that you and your rag tag bunch of political extremists are attempting to provide your own analysis of this text to keep your hands on weapons that you have no need for, just because you think an AR-15 is cool.
    I am all for people having hunting rifles, and shooting clay disks out of the air for sport, but no private citizen, who is not part of a Militia needs the ability to shoot 100s of rounds per minute or needs to carry weapons with them on a regular basis.

    Joe, buddy, it’s the second amendment of the Bill of Rights, and it was put into place to avoid tyranny! Allowing each state to bear arms under their own governed control to ensure that they could protect themselves against the Federal Government if such tyrannical behavior was repeated.

    The biggest problem with uneducated, uninformed people being able to have the right of free speech is that they can say whatever they want, and other uneducated/uniformed people will listen and repeat. Tea Party people
    understand this phenomenon quite well and use it to brain wash idiots like you
    into thinking Seal Team 6 is coming to take your pea shooter away. Some Tea Party followers even believe they can take trained professional soldiers with their buddies and a case of Budweiser. I just hope that if the government is able to
    properly analyze the sentences in the constitution and that you and your buddies don’t
    answer the call for your weapons with violence, because I assure you the
    military will win.

    • SoSayethTheBored

      TL:DR

      • Trivium

        Maybe 200 words. Wait, let me guess, you’re a Tea Party Adherent

  • Pingback: “Joe the (Fake) Plumber” Shows Why He’s a Republican Darling – and a Jackass | The PCTC Blog

  • Kathy Verbiest Baldock

    And the OBVIOUS reason that this man has irrelevant opinions is contained within.

  • talibanana

    Dumb and plumber: This fool thinks it’s important to opportunistically insert his forgotten face into the events of the day by calling out the angered comments of a man who’s child was just slain by a gun-toting psychopath, and throw in a gratuitous swipe at Obama, after reminding us not to politicize the situation. Hey why not picket his son’s funeral a la the Westboro Baptist Church? You’d surely get some much-needed attention then! Self-awareness was never Joe the Bummer’s strong point after he became famous for being an opponent of government assistance and we later found out that he availed himself of the same assistance in his time of need. But no matter the details he’s still firmly against it for OTHER people (no need to guess who those other people are…). A perfect spokesman for FOX News as long as you regurgitate their talking points you will be welcome no matter how repulsive a moron you happen to be. Too bad he’s not a leggy blonde – he would have his own show by now.

  • j238

    Writing at length about your attachment to your guns is absolutely pathetic.

  • John Abrahamsen

    He is correct. They don’t trump our human rights. 3 of them were stabbed anyway.. And what SSRI drugs was the murderer on (besides being a rich connected narcissistic loser from an anti-gun family)? We are not responsible for what the crazy lunatics do to people in your victim disarmament. “Gun Free” zones. Shame on you people for making it our problem. Enough.

    • Guest

      Idiota.

    • DelAnaya

      Victim disarmament? – I see. I suppose, in your ideal world, that those two young women at the entryway to the sorority would have been heavily armed on that warm holiday evening, and would have just blown the bad dude away? All would have been right with the world? That’s what has come to be distorted in right wing thought. Ideology trumps reality.

  • Moviefan23

    This open letter, as moronic and loathsome as it obviously is, raises an important question, albeit unintentionally. Before reading this, I thought the issue was how to keep firearms away from people who are mentally ill and likely to kill. Joe the Plumber inadvertently raises the question, are there people who are too stupid to own guns or computers? Clearly, at least in his case, the answer to that question is yes.

  • Jules

    Oh, boo hoo hoo; so your only son is dead. WHY, you ask? It’s because of YOU and people of your ilk. That’s right , blame everyONE and everyTHING else, instead of the killer and the abysmal American mental health system. Makes you and your cretin sympathizers which encompasses the majority of commenters here, all warm and cuddly to be so liberal and able to vent and express your so-called grief and anger so publicaly. What’s next; who are you gonna sue? Is political office in your future? Not a word about his three Asian roommates, Elliot Rodger stabbed to death. Do they not deserve some of your so-called concern. Should we blame and disparage the cutlery industry also? Just go bury your son and STFU.

    • ErikDC

      Your comment is appalling.

  • Freedom

    Joe, I agree with you. The only thing standing between us and tyranny is an armed populace. A gun can be one of the means that a psychotic person uses to inflict damage on families but if there is no gun, that psycho will still find a way to obey the voices in his/her head. Ever notice that criminal activity is highest in gun-free zones?

    • ErikDC

      If your hypothesis is true, why do these mass killings not occur with similar frequency in other countries with strict gun regulations?

  • Tracy

    The ACLU has been fighting for years (and successfully) to keep a persons “mental records” sealed. If that information could be gotten with a background check, there wouldn’t be all of these crazies shooting up people. So call your legislators and tell them to fight the ACLU and let those records be “unsealed” and maybe just maybe we can prevent some of these mentally unstable people from purchasing guns and killing with them. As somebody who has been a victim of a few crimes, including gun crime, I carry my gun for my personal safety and have for years. There will always be criminals getting guns illegally so it’s my job to protect myself and my family, police are much too far away to help me in a home invasion situation. The majority of gun owners have never even had to use their weapons in self defense, but if you have to save your own life or your families it’s good to know that we can still defend ourselves via the 2nd ammendment.

  • Jerry

    How is requiring universal background checks for all gun sales public and private infringing on your rights?!?!?!

    Sorry, but if you can’t take an hour out of your day to go to a licensed gun dealer, to get a background check done, when you want to buy or sell a gun then maybe you shouldn’t own a gun in the first place, because you obviously do NOT have enough patience to be a responsible gun owner.

    In 33 states anyone can go to a gun show and buy a firearm from a private seller no questions asked, sorry but that is simply insane.

    If you are a gun owner who opposes universal background checks, then you are probably a gun owner who knows that you can’t pass a background check.

  • cminca

    “But the words and images of Mr. Martinez blaming “the proliferation of guns”, lobbyists, politicians, etc.; will be exploited by gun-grab extremists as are all tragedies involving gun violence and the mentally ill by the anti-Second Amendment Left.”

    As opposed to me exploiting your grief in order to bolster my non-existent public importance as I pray that someone, anyone, from Fox news will call me because of this ridiculous and hateful letter.

  • Matthew Peterson

    How much did the gun lobby pay for this Bull$hit, I can’t imagine someone as dumb as him having an opinion without someone giving it to him.

  • Vandy

    Fox News wants you to know that dead children is an excellent reason to amend the US Constitution.

  • disqus_VBghj4nO5B

    would have been good if this guy just died off awhile ago.

  • Michael Moose

    You aren’t even a plumber you dumbass. Why be so insensitive and stoke this up?

  • Namennayo

    If only Rodgers had met Joe the Dumber before his maniacal rampage, Rodgers could have finally found a friend who sympathized with him, his victims would still be alive, and we wouldn’t be reading Joe’s worthless and selfish non-contribution to anything resembling a solution to America’s weapons and violence problem.

    Thanks for nothing, Joe. I’d tell you that you should be ashamed for your many failures, but since you possess no sense of shame, what would be the point?

  • RAS

    So Joe has come back up and out of the sewer…where he obviously found this BS!

  • Rick McCallister

    Big, tough, principled guy from behind the safety of your keyboard, thousands of miles from anyone you’re speaking to.

    Head out to those funerals, you fame-whôring monster, and then let’s see how bold you are, and how your paranoid little “believies” matter more than those kids’ lives.

    Fùck you, Sam. I hope something like this happens in your family just so some âsshole on the internet can tell you that your suffering is worth less than their wants.

    Oh and for the record, Samuel: 4510 Zeppelin Drive, Hanover Park, IL. Come talk to me about it if you think you’ve got the courage. I’ll have my cameras ready.

    • cminca

      I wish I could shake your hand.

  • Robert Miner

    the right to keep and bear arm written in an era that one shot one load black powder this was not intended for semi and full automatic weapons these gun nuts that think it means to open carry a assault rifle into business need to grow qa pair and grow up

  • Oneauta

    Note that the footnote on “Joe the Plumber” alludes to Barack Obama’s “socialist tax-and-spend philosophy. That policy is a biblical principle found in Genesis 41:30.
    Joe’s philosophy is found in Genesis 4:8. And Caine was asked, “Where is Abel your brother?” And he said, “I do not know. Am I my brother’s keeper?”…

  • Scott Lanway

    What a charming human being. What a shining example of the selfishness and fanaticism so rampant on the American Right these days.

  • programmer213

    Your attitude portrays everything what is wrong in the thinking of this country. You talk about rights…Every thing is a right: I have the right to do this, I have the right to do that….Grow a brain, balls, and think a little bit further than your pathetic upbringing…You put value on the ‘right’ to play with a piece of metal. Childish and outdated. maybe at one point in time this was valid, but not anymore. When kids that have been shot and stabbed trump your right to bear a piece of rusted iron, there is something fundamentally wrong with your upbringing.
    Mr. Plumber (or should I say douche bag plumber): if you care ore about your piece of rusted iron, respectfully, next time there is a shooting I do hope one of your close relatives is involved.
    Once again, you can’t fix stupid.

  • Tony Trotter

    Oh, Joe. You’re the classiest. Tell me that part, again, about how exploiting someone is bad? If you can’t recall, I hear Sarah and John have some spare time. I’m SURE they can volunteer you some more words. It worked SO well for you, last time.

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  • PhilKnox

    The Huff Post must be linking here. The leftist wackos are out in force.

    • Arthur Adams

      Terrified of not being in your little right-wing echo chamber, huh?

      • PhilKnox

        not really I read leftwing newspaper all of the time I just like to have an educated, logical and intellectual conversation, and I can’t get that with most leftists including yourself. You folks cater to emotion a bit way too much and you have over inflated opinions of yourselves and your viewpoints. All ideas are not equal especially coming from a leftwing nutjob like yourself. To talk to a liberal, such as yourself, is like talking to a wall so in that regard it is an echo chamber. I talk to liberals like you Arthur when I am in need of some comic relief.

      • PhilKnox

        Not really I read leftwing newspaper all of the time. I just like to have an educated, logical and intellectual conversation, and I can’t get that with most leftists including yourself. You folks cater to emotion a
        bit way too much and you have over inflated opinions of yourselves and your viewpoints. All ideas are not equal especially coming from a leftwing nutjob like yourself. To talk to a liberal, such as yourself, is
        like talking to a wall so in that regard it is an echo chamber. I talk to liberals like you Arthur when I am in need of some comic relief. The funny thing is that you probably think you are so witty, intelligent, and erudite,however, in reality the joke is on you. It is really sad and pathetic, don’t you think?

  • Arthur Adams

    Joe,

    Thank you. Thank you so much. You, along with the idiots who carry rifles into restaurants because they can and proceed to ignore every gun safety rule imaginable, make the gun rights lobby look like utter jerks. You’re digging your own grave.

    With regards,
    Sane people across America

  • GWBear

    His name is Sam, and he’s not a certified plumber last I heard.

    All of his considerable personal financial issues as reported in recent years would be far better served by Progressive policies than *anything* the GOTP has dreamed up in decades.

    Sadly, he calls the President out as socialist. However, he’s like so many others who have not the slightest clue how incredibly Right Wing, and “non-socialist” Obama is. Was Ike a Socialist? How about Gerald Ford? Obama is in their space…

    It’s all rage and bombast. Why the heck do the rest of us have to listen to so many GOTP ranters… their hate, rage, distortion, and most of all, Ignorance! I would far better debate someone who had truth and facts on what “socialist” thing Obama did… Good luck finding one, as there are none!

  • Brian Appleton, Johannesburg,

    You all seem to be blaming Joe for something he hasn’t done.He expressed grief at what happened, and then laid out his beliefs on gun ownership. Unless you know of someone Joe shot illegally, I suggest you learn to spell before next blasting away about things you obviously know very little about. Amend your constitution to stop mentally unstable people buying weapons and the majority of your problems will disappear. The government have vastly reduced the number of guns legally held in private hands, and guess what……….. we are now the murder capital of the world. because of course all the people who had unlisenced guns kept them. Think on that scenario.

    • Arthur Adams

      “learn to spell”
      “unlisenced”

      A-hem.

    • Namennayo

      Joe turned a tragedy that plays out again and again into an article about himself, was insensitive in doing so, and practically played the victim. “Oh, your child was shot to death because of lax gun laws? Well, what’s REALLY important right now is that I get to keep my guns, so shut up, grieving dad! I don’t want to hear it!”

      That kind of base cruelty and selfishness deserves no respect. It’s not civilized or productive.

    • Tony Trotter

      Yeah. His grief was overwhelming after he said, “your dead kids don’t trump my Constitutional rights.” Nothing says grief like telling a parent, “sorry your children were murdered, but I got my gun!” I’m sure he shed a full tear as he had a smart person type it for him.

    • Nungman

      Hey, old fossil Afrikaaner, how many of those murders were committed with guns? You don’t specify and I must doubt it’s very many. Mostly Black on Black, with knives.
      Unfortunately you can’t ask Reeva Steenkamp how she feels about more South Africans having guns in their homes. She was shot dead in the bathroom by (licensed)–note correct spelling–gun owner Oscar “The Blade Runner” Pistorius.

    • Sirk

      I believe your country is a mess for a variety of reasons.

  • Eric

    Let’s all look on the bright side. If it weren’t for the massive gun violence in America and the NRA’s attempts to deflect debate, Republican’s would not give two s**** about mental HEALTHCARE.

  • autoreader

    Hey Joe the plumber, you wouldn’t make pimple on a plumbers butttt!!!!!

  • ecwal

    Why is it “insane” to disagree with the 2nd Amendment? The argument is not about dead kids trumping your Constitutional rights, but that the language and interpretation of those rights are themselves flawed.

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  • brad wells

    My condolences to Mr. Martinez and all the families of the slain. A truly monsterous act. The emotions most be uncontrollable.
    The NRA or any responsible American that carries a gun is not to blame. Its one individual that wasn’t able to rationalize his thoughts – and in his twisted mind went out to satisfy his feelings. A sick human being – There are more out there unfortunitly.
    Perhaps if a good semaritan was armed that night he might have been able to stop this lunatic – thus saving lives. Again -I’m so sorry for your lost. Thank you, Brad Wells

    • DelAnaya

      Good Samaritan? What fantasy world do you live in? What chance did those two young women at the sorority have? I suppose they should have just waited around until this good samaritan showed up? Or maybe they should have been armed themselves and just blown the nut away? They were barely past being teenagers. This is the kind of society the the right envisions for us? Everyone carries a gun?

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  • Morgan Griffith

    some people are too insensitive and too much of a media whore to know when it is better to just shut up

  • http://gmail.com Barnyard1

    What an insensitive knucklehead & that’s why Joe is a plumber cause all he can do is lay his pipe in the wrong places.

  • Pingback: Joe the Plumber pens ‘harsh’ open letter to UC Santa Barbara victims’ families | Twitchy

  • Guest

    “I’m not talking here about the three tragic murders Rodger committed by stabbing before his driving and shooting spree; I speak now only to the families of the gunshot victims in Santa Barbara:It’s a tragedy.”

    In case you’re confused, he doesn’t think it was a tragedy that the other three boys were killed. All class, man, all class.

  • John Zappulla

    So Joe, what did you need? A few extra thousands of bucks to appear on all the talk shows and newscasts. You wanted the publicity and you got it. But guess what, I would rather live on in anonymity and with less money in my pocket than being remembered as a prick and a moron

    • http://gmail.com Barnyard1

      Fox (Faux news) will embrace this peckerhead.

  • Tony Drolson

    always comes down to the same old thing, guns don’t kill people unnecessarily half baked people do. there is hundreds of ways to kill somebody . don’t put it all on guns. if they can’t get a gun they will just do something else.

    • http://gmail.com Barnyard1

      Not quite so easily, countries that have strict no gun laws have less suicides & murders.

      • brad wells

        lets talk about gun laws in the united states. You obviously mentioned ‘other countries’ because it is factual that communities where guns are lawful – the crime and murder rate is much lower .

  • http://gmail.com Barnyard1

    Typical effin Tea bagger wanker.

    • brad wells

      typical 5th grad mentality – your love ones must be proud

      • http://gmail.com Barnyard1

        The truth shall set ye free chump. I graduated suma cum Laude from Rutgers.

        • brad wells

          Have a good day you Rutgers Genius!

  • Sirk

    What gives this sick blowhard the right to address grieving parents. Why was this posted. I truly hope this sadistic outburst haunts him for the rest of his life.

  • Manny Panning

    How do I put this, Sam?

    Do I call you a douche for your complete lack of sympathy? No, for that would be to insult the great douches, like Justin Bieber, a douche’s douche.

    Do I explain to you how your guns are nothing but killing devices, that those kids were just getting started and had so much ahead them? No, you only understand hate, fear, and lies. That makes you a standout as a Tea Party hack, but it makes you something I scrape off my shoe as a man.

    Do I call you a fucknugget for your insane priorities? No, a true fucknugget also has a bad haircut, like Wayne LaPierre, a fucknugget’s fucknugget.

    No, I think I will just quietly wait for you to ride out minutes 30 to 40 of your 15 minutes, as you hypocritically go to your union job.

    Look up irrelevance. You will see your face right beside Sarah Palin’s.

  • Joseph Arechavala

    It’s amazing. The bodies aren’t even cold.

    And you, Mr. Wurzelbacher, have no decency, no humanity whatsoever.

    BTW, I thought conservatives counted themselves as decent, moral citizens. Who cared about their neighbors. At least, that’s what I’ve heard them say…

  • geezlouise

    Disgusting tripe disguised by a few kind but shallow words. Go away. Joe. Just go away.

  • JPD

    With his history of mental problems and frightening online social media presence, Elliot Rodgers bought the guns he used LEGALLY. Yet, you think we need no new restrictions on who can buy guns? As a father who has children who will walk the streets with people out there just like Elliot Rodgers, how can you conceivably justify that?

    • Susie

      I can tell you as a parent whose child was a victim of a car jacking at knife point…I am extremely grateful that my son did not have a gun and that his attackers did not have guns. My son had his car stolen because that is all they wanted. I still, thankfully, have my son.

  • kckitty

    Who cares what this loser has to say.

  • Ted_Zee_Man

    THANK YOU JOE FOR SAYING THIS. “Joe The Plumber”: ‘Your Dead Kids Don’t Trump My Constitutional Rights’ To Have Guns. BECAUSE OF PEOPLE LIKE YOU AND THE OTHER IDIOT REPUBLICANS IT WILL NOT BE MUCH LONGER BEFORE WE HAVE ADDITIONAL CONTROLS …PLACED ON “PEOPLE WITH GUNS.” WE WILL NOT REMOVE WEAPONS FROM PEOPLE WHO HAVE A LEGAL RIGHT TO OWN THEM AND THE MENTALITY TO OWN THEM. HOWEVER; WHICH YOUR STATEMENT PROVES TO ME YOU FAIL TO HAVE.

    BUT BECAUSE YOU ARE SUCH A BRAVE MAN WITH A GUN,
    JOE HERE IS A CHALLEGE TO YOU. YOU MEET ME IN A SHOOT OUT WITH RIFLES OF OUR CHOICE AND WE START AT A DISTANCE OF 2 MILES APART MOVING CLOSER BY 100 YARDS EACH UNTIL ONE OF US IS HIT AND WOUNDED OR KILLED. EACH OF US MUST HAVE A WIND FLAG ATTACHED TO OUR HELMETS.

    • DelAnaya

      The wackos are out in force tonight.

  • Sea Dog

    Wurzelbacher – I’ve known and fought alongside real Americans. You are a Loser.

  • Kim W

    Dear Mr. Wurzelbacher:

    Your desperate need for attention and desperate wish to continue to appear relevant do not trump a father’s right to grieve in peace.

    Sincerely,

    K

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  • Quippity

    Your idiocy trumps your humanity.

  • bobfellerfan

    Plumber Joe, you are a worthless right wing parasite. Do the world a favor and kill yourself

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  • aloha43

    First….Joe you are a disgusting excuse for a human being for getting in the face of a grieving parent that just had his son killed.

    Second, it is hard to believe how awful the gun nut comments are here. Such rotten, desperate comments made by such stupid individuals. That is what is wrong with our country.

    Have a heart for the poor parents who lost their children, instead of standing up for such heartless nonsense.

  • Neville Bartos

    And the rest of us in the civilised world watch on and laugh at the backward american red-necks gibbering about rights that drunks and bigots came up with hundreds of years ago. Lets all hope China and Russia wipe america off the map sooner than later.

    • http://fishfearme.blogs.com/ Dave

      Right back at you, Neville.

    • Ashlea Marshall

      Hah, damn straight. Every day there’s another story/quote/whatever that comes out of America and makes me wish the Cold War had gone ahead and that Russia had won.

      • http://fishfearme.blogs.com/ Dave

        Yeah, because a police state is such a fantastic place to live in. If the dread of a knock on the door in the middle of the night isn’t enough thrills, there are the bread lines and the rationing and the light-hearted life in an economy where, “They pretend to pay us and we pretend to work.”

        • Ashlea Marshall

          Sorry I can’t hear you over the sound of American hypocrisy and war crimes

          • http://fishfearme.blogs.com/ Dave

            Ah, I see. America’s faults are such that you are willing to embrace an evil ideology and its brutal regime instead. Good luck with that. Please let us know how it turns out. [edit] If they will let you, of course, and they almost certainly won’t.

          • Ashlea Marshall

            Funnily enough, I’m actually more than okay with living where there aren’t mass shootings and the killing of children by drones so

          • http://fishfearme.blogs.com/ Dave

            “…the killing of children by drones…”

            What? I oppose many of Obama’s actions, including killing children with weapons fired from drones, but even he hasn’t dared to do that in America. Or was the drone mention just a reflexive anti-American brain fart that I should politely ignore?

          • Ashlea Marshall

            Iraq. Pakistan. Afghanistan. The inaction over Syria. Siding with Israel as they slaughter Palestinians.

            Your country stands by and does nothing about the likes of those countries, the same as it did after Sandy Hook.

          • Eric

            The problem is you’re vilifying America for “inaction over Syria”, but giving Russia a pass for ACTIVELY AIDING THE REGIME. You want to know why America’s “playing off” with the Syrian rebels? Because direct confrontation would result in a war with RUSSIA.

          • scootpeep

            SMART ANSWER!! FOR ONCE!! And of course, we’ll still be training security in Afghanistan for many years to come.That should piss off China as well.

          • http://fishfearme.blogs.com/ Dave

            Soooo…I don’t even know what you’re saying here.

          • scootpeep

            Check the N.D.A.A., the National Defense Authorization Act he signed with an electronic pen while vacationing in Hawaii. Amazon and FedEx will start using drones with FAA approval, what makes you think the feds won’t follow?

      • Eric

        I’m not a fan of America’s hicks either, but nothing trumps the bats*** insanity of Russia’s underclass. Modern Russia reminds me a little too much of Germany before WWII. A bunch of ignorant racists and homophobes looking to some strong man to help them “reclaim their place in the world.”

  • Jay Gee

    I back him. He’s right to say it due to every tragedy is exploited by liberals causing the lawful people to defend their rights so that they are not taken away by the liberals. I say Go Joe!

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  • yogi29073

    The NRA, use to be showing me how to shoot a 22 rifle safely, and a variety of other safety rules…this was in 1958. It was a respected group of individuals that taught gun safety and how to properly aim and shoot. Today’s NRA leaders remind me of the Gestapo (note I said Leaders, not members)…silence or demonize anyone that is against gun rights.
    We need restrictive policies that restrict the sale of any gun, and we need to OUTLAW assault rifles. Think about it, A S S U A L T R I F L E, are used to “assault”…wait for it…people!!!! Assault rifles are designed to kill human beings, NOT hunt. What in the world do we need assault rifles for other than to kill other people.
    This despicable excuse of a letter written by a moron whose only idea is to say I don’t know how you feel about losing you child, but screw how you feel about expressing your emotional pain on my gun rights is disgusting, just disgusting.
    Hay Wurzelbacher, go perform an unnatural sexual act upon yourself and your whole family. Love to show you how to go thru a steel door…without opening it!! You are a total ucken fidiot!!!

  • MarioRom

    Liberals always tell us “If you don’t like abortion, don’t have one.”
    Well, if you don’t like guns, don’t buy one yourselves. Sheesh!

    • yogi29073

      It’s not “don’t like guns”…it’s the ease in which anyone can buy a gun without a background check anywhere, regardless of the individuals background. And the ability of the NRA to block any reasonable attempt to stop the flood of school deaths or other tragedies taking place because of the ease with which anyone can buy a gun.THAT’S THE PROBLEM!

      • MarioRom

        I live in NJ. A BB gun here is considered a “weapon.” I cannot even buy one in PA because I live in NJ but since I will be traveling across the USA this summer, well, I get to break the law here.

        A man who services and repairs ATM’s in “bad neighborhoods” was denied a permit to carry a gun. So why are criminals tolerated as we see in NYC where “stop and frisk” was stopped by a new Liberal Administration and gun crimes have gone up 32% but a guy trying to stay safe from the hoodlums TOLD no with the gun?

    • DelAnaya

      Reach into your bag of meaningless right wing cliches and pull out another one. It’s english and it’s grammatically correct, but it shows about as much deep thought as our good friend Joe.

      • MarioRom

        There are no grammatical errors in my posted statement. Perhaps being a Liberal, you don’t see what is there but see things that are not like you do with the Constitution.

        For the record, I support abortion 100% because mostly Liberals get them. Just saying.

        • DelAnaya

          The Constitution? You mean the perverted conservative interpretation of the Constitution. This is going to make it to the Supreme Court eventually and we’ll get some clarity on your distorted view of the Constitution. Get ready. It’s not going to go down well for antique, reactionary conservatives. Our society is changing. Take some advice: Start compromising on gun control or you are going to lose it all.

          • MarioRom

            The Lunatics on the Left are the ones who see things in the Constitution that are not there and don’t see what is. That is a fact. The second Amendment talks about “The Militia” and the loons are quick to point out theat there are no militias today (that they know of). Okay, let’s use your argument. What is the Militia? According to definition, it is every able bodied man aged 17 – 45, with the exception of a few politicians. Erroneous repetition of historical fact does not make the errors true. Now I can understand why Liberals cannot recall anything past 3 days ago, but hey, abortion kills 1 and a half million people every year so practice what you preach and fight against the modern day Nazis – The Liberal left.

          • DelAnaya

            LOL – When you’re on the Supreme Court and can authoritatively make that kind of pronouncement, I’ll listen to you. That’s the way this country works. Courts interpret the constitution, so that we’re not confused. Until then your interpretation below remains in liberal eyes just that, a confused, perverted view that has contributed to the violence in this country.

            Get real. Conservatives are on the wrong side of history and you are going to lose this big unless you compromise. Intransigence on reasonable gun control will be judged poorly by history and conservatives will be blamed.

          • MarioRom

            I disagree on everything you said. The left wouldn’t even win elections if not for the cheating and fraud. When you can explain how 7,000 more votes were cast in Milwaukee than the number of people who live in the city, you might have a case.

            The SCOTUS has affirmed the second amendment over and over again so I am on the right side of history. If you don’t like guns, don’t buy one but you know, almost every one of the shooters were left leaning. Just saying.

    • Emma

      Wow, you are a special case.

      • MarioRom

        And you’re an idiot clown. What’s your point, other than what’s on top of your head?

        (Liberals ALWAYS resort to name calling when they cannot defend an argument, don’t they?) Sheesh!

    • Eric

      The key difference being that liberals don’t perform mass abortions on unwilling college students

      • MarioRom

        You know, you’re right in a way however like the unborn child, those that are killed by MENTAL CASES are also killed because the government refuses to let them try to defend themselves.

        This morning, another kook killed one in Seattle but unlike the sheep in most schools, one guy got up and disarmed the shooter. To point the finger at guns is a fallacy. Point the finger at the ACLU which fought to have these mental cases released back into the public when they should be institutionalized.

        • Eric

          Just like not every gun or gun owner is involved in violent crime. Not every person who has mental health problems is a danger to others. We shouldn’t be throwing the baby out with the bathwater in EITHER case.

  • NoShrinkingViolet2013

    Drop dead fat head. Your phony display of empathy means nothing. Better to just shut up and sit this one out. The Gun Control Lobby are coming after simpletons like yourself.

  • Karen Mitchell

    What a dick!

  • Derek Devlin

    What are the chances that this kid had any sort of political affiliation?

    That being said, the 2nd amendment was written in the 18th century- you know, for people living in the 18th century.

  • Pingback: Open Letter to Samuel “Joe the Plumber” Wurzelbacher | The Arkside of Thought

  • Susie

    since the letter was written by sam wurzelbacher and not some troll on this discussion page, and addressed to the parents of the victims that were killed, I would like to say that I am amazed that anyone could be as cold hearted and hateful as “Joe the Plumber” obviously is. However, since his only claim to fame was being whored out by the republican party, I don’t think much more can be expected. I’m am just amazed that anything that this loser has to say would be worthy of reprinting.

  • Bob

    Samuel Joseph Wurzelbacher is a despicable human being.

  • Bob

    Go wrestle a turd from some militia member’s clogged toilet, Joe.

  • Emma

    Hey Joe, when your wife and kids are shot dead as they go about their day, just read your own letter. I promise you will feel so great about the situation knowing that it’s most definitely a wonderful right (including this case of a man who thought he deserved sexual gratification by accosting woman) to shoot dead innocent people. Bless your tiny deranged soul. Have a fantastic day!

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  • Scott DeBerg

    Are you f-ing kidding me? I wish I could use all four letters – it might be something you can relate to, you ignorant moron. OF COURSE their pain trumps your rights. OF COURSE their pain TOTALLY trumps your misguided interpretation of the 2nd Amendment. I refuse to argue with those of you who refuse to read the first phrase of the first sentence…I’m quoting the actual Constitution here…”A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a Free State”…Back in 1791 – when muskets were the only gun of choice – was when this was written and adopted.

    • Joseph

      The 2nd Amendment IS ONLY 1 SENTENCE you moron, and a sentence is usually composed with clauses that describes a COMPLETE THOUGHT.

    • WXRGina

      “Of course their pain TRUMPS” our rights? That’s ridiculous, and only passes as “reason” in the mind of a liberal. And your contention that because our right to keep and bear arms was written in the 18th century that it’s somehow obsolete is equally ridiculous. You quote the beginning of the Second Amendment, but you conveniently leave out the heart of it: …the RIGHT OF THE PEOPLE to keep and bear arms SHALL NOT BE INFRINGED.

      • Arthur Adams

        Every right has limitations. That’s basic civics.

        • WXRGina

          Basic civics? “Their pain trumps” our rights is NOT basic civics. It’s liberal nonsense.

          • Arthur Adams

            No one (with any authority) is talking about taking away Joe-the-not-a-plumber’s phallic substitute. That debate has ended; you guys won. We’ll pay the blood price every so often Joe can stroke his rifle as he dreams of President Palin.

            What we are trying to talk about is the fact the Elliot Rodger, who was severely psychologically troubled, was able to by guns legally. We’re trying to say, “can’t we at least make sure some guy who makes the Joker from Batman look stable can’t buy guns?” But we can’t even discuss that, because you and Joe-the-imbecile insists that your right to your guns trumps all others and that even a father who had a child gunned down cannot raise one whimper of concern.

  • emma42

    So the oft misinterpreted 2nd Amendment apparently, in the plumber’s eyes, trumps the right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. Glad to know it’s only an amendment he defends to (other people’s) dying day.

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  • Another bitter cynic

    You get a plumber’s license yet, Joe?

  • Confused

    This has to be clickbait. I refuse to believe that someone is this hypocritical and just plain stupid.

  • janbn

    If the children of this SOB were killed by a gun I guess he would still say that everyone has the right to carry a gun no matter how many children have to die for that right. I would not wish for his kids to be shot and killed but should that happen I would not shed a tear for this man’s loss.

    Don’t parents have the right to send their children to school or out to play without fear of them being shot by someone who believes he or she has the “right” to have a gun? I guess in this gun crazy country parents do not have that right.

  • http://uzzas.blogspot.com/2010/06/introduction.html uzza

    Mr. Wurzlebacher;

    Albert Fish, after he killed and ate a little Alice Budd, wrote to her parents about it. It’s like he murdered her twice. When a child is dead we have only memories, and we gaurd these so they will be ‘gone but not forgotten’ for as long as we live. If those memories are good it’s easier to bear.
    It’s hard to fathom that a person can sink as low as Fish, or the Sandy Hook “truther” who denied the child’s very existence, and put an indelible stain on the only part of their child left to these parents, as did your words. You had no reason to force yourself into this private pain, but like Mr. Fish, you felt you had to show up at the funeral and piss on the corpse.
    Your words weren’t “harsh”, they were callous and depraved and hurtful. My son’s name was Chris too, just like the Martinez child and I can’t read your letter without tears, even though it’s been over forty years. Be sure that the Martinez family will always feel the pain of having their most precious memories sullied by your disrespect.

    What did you accomplish? Two things. You added to the pain that two people will feel for a lifetime. And you convinced one person at least to actively support any gun control measures. As far as I’m concerned, you don’t have a right to speak or a right to bear arms, you forfeited those rights when just like Mr. Fish, you sent your letter. I would close with a hope that you never have to experience the pain you obviously know nothing about, but really I just don’t care. I do hope you grow a soul.

    • SoGrits

      Hooray uzza! You nailed it. He is an attention whore and let’s quit paying him for his non-service!

    • Sandy99

      “you felt you had to show up at the funeral and piss on the corpse.”
      ++++
      Perfectly stated, uzza. Why this horrible ‘thing’ felt the need to insert himself in this tragedy and add to the families’ pain and grief with with his disgusting “open letter” is beyond human comprehension. This ‘thing’ called himself a man in his putrid rant — he is anything but….

  • MB

    What many forget are the circumstances under which the amendment was written. There were no such things as automatic weapons – your family probably had a rifle or musket, and these largely-inaccurate weapons sometimes had the reloading time as lengthy as 2 minutes. (No wonder the Americans and British lined up across from one another to shoot at each other – their weapons were often inaccurate and jammed frequently!) The police force was nearly non-existent – any problems and you had to hope your neighbors heard you yelling, or you handled them yourself, since that often WAS the role of the men folk – to protect their family and property since you couldn’t exactly dial 911. (Although, I don’t condone shooting as a way of handling disagreements.) Laws MUST be considered from the context in which they were written, regardless of which side you are on.

  • christopher37064

    Joe the plumber can barely string together two coherent sentences, and the ones he manages to eke out are horrifyingly cruel. He is what is wrong with America.

  • poxod

    Universal Background Checks NOW. These are the kinds of people who oppose sensible legislation. Let’s STOP being cowed by their callousness and misguided patriotism.

  • Joseph

    As free people, do we consider the POOL of blood created by the abuse of our freedoms as somehow abnegating the OCEAN of blood that was formed from the acquisition of our freedoms.

    • Eric

      Makes you wonder why the founding fathers never instituted Universal Background Checks. Or a ban assault muskets.

      At least they limited the amount of rounds fired to one every 15 seconds.

    • The Weeping Cheeto

      Far more people are now slaughtered by guns every year than died in the entire Revolution.

      • Joseph

        Being free is not a static destination. We have lost over a million soldiers thru various conflicts that defended your access to freedom. You DO NOT bring your tragic anecdotal story to the public policy table and expect POLICY(laws) to impact 330 million people, because 100th of 1% of the population commits violent crimes……this is not how freedom loving people conduct themselves…..only totalitarians and tyrants adopt this type of mathematical ratios.

        • The Weeping Cheeto

          You have to be alive to be free. Getting shot by a gun nut takes my right to be alive away.

          • Joseph

            FREEDOM = RISKS. People like to throw the word freedom around quite loosely, but in your quiet moments consider this………FREEDOM can only be measured by the negative externalities that unfold……..why?….because individuals still have access to choices…….. yes it can be tragic at times, but the alternative………freedom for security……….produces unintended consequences

          • The Weeping Cheeto

            Every other modern country doesn’t have this problem and has very strict gun laws. They’re still free and not getting gunned down by the thousands like here.

          • Joseph

            Your right….the rest of the World has worse problems. Lets take the UK. The UK has 1/5 the population of the US, but has 6x more violent assaults(robberies, home invasions)…….why?……..because the criminal element operates with impunity, and no clear minded individual would suggest this is a higher quality of life for the members of society.

          • The Weeping Cheeto

            You obviously think being murdered is better than being assaulted. Weird.

            Also, those phony stats are just that. The UK definition of violent crime is completely different than what is used in the US.

            http://blog.skepticallibertarian.Com/2013/01/12/fact-checking-ben-swann-is-the-uk-really-5-times-more-violent-than-the-us/

            http://dispellingthemythukvsusguns.wordpress.Com/

          • Joseph

            Phony my ass……do your research. Also, have you ever lived in the UK?…….I did not think so…….because if you had you would know firsthand the level of crime that street gangs impose on society in the UK. Additionally, you obviously believe it is better being victimize at a 5x higher rate regardless if is just being beaten or robbed….very weird…….but you are being consistent with your cowardliness.

          • The Weeping Cheeto

            I just posted two links showing that your “facts” aren’t. You are not five times more likely to be a “victim”. Suggesting that if people were slaughtering each other with guns they’d be safer is nuts. Lets talk about all the other countries without guns that are much safer than here. Australia banned guns and became safer. Japan? Western Europe? If you have to lie and use phony stats to back up your position, it isn’t much of a position.

          • Joseph

            You posted crap…..go to FBI Stats. You are a naïve homebound idiot and a cowardly one at that………trading away freedom for security based on your fears…….you should be embarrassed that you are willing to trade away the blood and treasure that this Country’s finest spent so you can have access to your cowardliness.

          • The Weeping Cheeto

            FBI keeps stats completely differently than the UK does. Comparing the two is like comparing apples and watermelons and is very disingenuous. Disputing that the US is the least safe first world country is a flat out lie. Meat-headed, fat, camo-wearing Bubbas accidentally shooting people in Walmarts are not keeping anyone “safe”.

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  • pragprogessive

    Samuel is an attention whore. Why he even feels the need to write about these tragic deaths is beyond me. Since Obama took office his ilk have bought more guns than they have in decades…guess what…no one is coming for your guns and your sympathy is pure bullshit and nothing but a media grab. F%# You Sam.

  • Lily

    “your dead kids don’t trump my constitutional rights”… really? maybe YOU “Joe The Plumber” – Wurzelbacher- NEED to lose your children to gun violence!!! Then I want to hear you say “MY DEAD KIDS don’t trump my constitutional rights.!!!! and maybe then, just then, you’ll be more convincing!!!! And to top it all, you have the audacity to offer your prayers?!?! and call yourself Christian!! REALLY? Who wants/needs prayers from an individual like you??

  • http://geopolitics.us TheBigPicture X

    “As harsh as this sounds – your dead kids don’t trump my Constitutional rights.”

    Of course, the most important thing Joe the Plumber cares about, when it comes to this horrific tragedy is… how it affects him. Is this really the poster-boy of Republicanism?

    • garystartswithg

      Yes, it is. I was just on another news post about a coal burning plant that hemmed and hawed and lied outright about what Obama would do to electric bills if they had to comply with cleaner burning measures. Of course the only thing I could think of was Reagan taking solar panels off the White House. And laughing about gay people dying. If a Republican can’t lie outright then you just ruined their day, you bully.

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  • angelsinca

    It must hurt to have raised an evil seed. Too bad. The hurt is worse for the other parents.

  • Don Andrews

    There is truth as to why he has the moniker ” Joe The Plummer ” for the crap and poop he just spewed in his “Open Letter” Not one person has ever denied you Joe, the right to own guns. That is your choice. Not one person has ever denied you Joe, the right to defend your family and your home. But to come out with the statement that you did and add your incinderery comment about guns and dead kids is below the below. I really wonder what your reaction would be if it was your child in the morgue. The 2nd amendment is the most misunderstood one of asll. Yes, it gives us the “Right To Bear Arms” but then it continues mentioning a “well armed militia” not every person who has the cash to buy a gun. Semi Automatic and Automatic weapons have no place in a civilized society. Stop the production and maybe the dead body numbers will decrease. Ask Gabby Giffords how she feels

  • Guest

    I;m sorry to say that you sir and a sorry excuse for a human being, you have shown yourself to be rude and insensitive to the parents of the victims. As far as I am concerned you are irrelevant to the issue and I for one will not listen to a rant of a lunatic.

    • Joseph

      Empathy without the discipline of self awareness only becomes a tool for tyranny.

  • Rick Schmitz

    I’m sorry to say that you sir are a sorry excuse for a human being, you have shown yourself to be rude and insensitive to the parents of the victims. As far as I am concerned you are irrelevant to the issue and I for one will not listen to a rant of a lunatic.

  • Sethu

    Get well soon, Joe. You are as sick as Rodger!

  • seashellz51

    Glad you said what you said because people should see exactly what kind of people the NRA and gun zealots really are. Shame on you, of course, but thanks for letting everyone see your true self.

    • WXRGina

      True self? Gun zealots? Is that what you see when you read Joe’s letter? Wow. Your vision is not good. Joe’s letter is a right defense of our liberties, but where we see our rights and freedoms being abridged, you see “zealots.” That’s sad.

      • felixzacat

        no. you are wrong. He is a heartless prick with a penis-size insecurity problem. A joke like 90% of the NRA members.

      • IntelliWriter

        Anyone who can’t get on board with “sensible” gun legislation is a zealot. The NRA has become the enemy leaving Congress unable to pass legislation that has 90% approval by the American people, up to and including, responsible gun owners.

        So yeah, he’s a zealot. This is hardly the time for a stupid letter like this after the eloquent and searing message sent by the grieving father.

      • willcommentforfood

        WXR, you’re nothing but a pathetic bully. You have your gun rights and no one is suggesting to remove them, but you are as paranoid as the street babbling schizo and make as much sense. In your zeal against liberalism, you endorse idiot Joe’s foul vomit on grieving parents. I will never invite you to a social function, I hope I never meet you because I know I’d have listen to your ridiculous RW garbage out of your fillibustering mouth. If you had a moment of decency, you would allow these parents space to grieve before babbling your partisan and gun fetish bs. It’s your vision and your heart that is impaired.

      • seashellz51

        Yeah, well, your liberties to play with your toys however you want and without any responsibility stop where the right of my children to live begins. Be responsible, be honorable, have common sense. Guns are dangerous machines, not some symbol of your freedom. Symbols don’t kill people, guns do.

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  • steveafrikaner

    Everyone want’s to be special! Well Rodgers was special. A special kind of narcistic, “Hollywood entitled”, psychopath! Wait for people to start blaming inanimate objects, like black BMW’s, knives, guns, but never, never nut cases like this.

    • Jacquie G

      No you don’t blame the inanimate object. You blame the laws that allow inanimate objects like assault rifles to get into the hands of an OBVIOUSLY mentally challenged person. And why are the laws the way they are? The NRA & the idiotic gun lobby in the USA.
      I live in Canada. We don’t have the guns. And guess what? We don’t have the gun deaths!!

      2011 Stats for Brooklyn, NY VS. Toronto, ON – both cities of approx 2.5 million, similar income/ethnicity mixes, etc.

      Brooklyn – Right to bear arms = 119 shooting deaths.
      Toronto – Stricter controls on handguns & automatic weapons = 27 shooting deaths.”

      Yup. He was a nutter. His poor parents did all they could to get someone to listen. Doesn’t change the fact that MANY more people would be alive and/or unharmed today if this guy couldn’t get his hands on the guns. Only 3 people very near him were stabbed.

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  • LaurenceW1

    What kind of man would write this? What kind of rag would publish it?

    • WXRGina

      What kind of man would write what, exactly? A defense of freedom in the face of encroaching tyranny? Which of our God-given rights do you have a problem with? Our right to keep and bear arms? What Joe said is spot-on, whether you like it or not.

      • DBOS

        Maybe he is, but face it, he is not doing gun owners or the pro gun lobby any favors when he chooses to address the father less than a week after he lost his son. Sometimes it’s best to keep your damn mouth shut until the time calls. My dad has a gun collection, but he doesn’t go trying to shout down someone who is reacting in extreme pain that most of us cannot imagine having to go through. Let’s face it, Joe is a bonehead…not sure what he thinks qualifies himself to speak on behalf of us, other than his 1st amendment rights. This is the same type of knee-jerk reaction that we saw after Newtown when some people felt the need to blame the victims or their families for speaking out, or when the NRA felt the need to have a convention right in the backyard of Columbine not long after it happened. And we blame liberals for knee-jerk reactions after these things happen? How about we take a step back and just shut up after something like this happens until the dust blows over?

        • WXRGina

          It’s too bad the father couldn’t have kept politics out of it until the dust blew over. When he decided to knee-jerk right out of the gate with gun control nonsense, he opened himself up to a response.

          • DBOS

            Maybe, but unlike him, neither you or I just lost our child did we?

          • Arthur Adams

            I’ve watched my aunt and uncle grieve the death my cousin, and I’ve watched my parents grieve the loss of my brother. If it’s possible for a human being to experience emotional pain greater than what a parent who has to bury a child suffers, I hope I never have to see anyone go through it. What @WXRGina:disqus said demonstrates that either she’s never known a parent who lost a child, or that she’s so obsessed with guns that she’d tell Mr. Martinez “that was just a child. Nothing’s more important than my gun.”

          • Arthur Adams

            You’re asking someone who just lost a child to remain calm about what killed his kid?

            What kind of monster are you?

          • willcommentforfood

            Got it backwards. I bet you’re so sensitive to others’ feelings that if a neighbor asked you to stop running your lawn mower so their exhausted parent could sleep, you would say f.u. and too bad instead of “sure, glad to help” and mowing at another time. That is NO WAY to live, jerk.

      • Hamtastic

        You have to prove a God exists before you can claim to have rights given to you by said deity. Also, God didn’t write the Constitution, so what say we merely talk like adults and stop with the hysterics over a fear of NOT having a gun to nuzzle with.

      • http://www.acid-product.co.uk Ian Davies

        You sound like the kind of person who loves to tub-thump about America’s Founding Fathers and invoke some invisible sky wizard as your justification to keep deadly weapons, while conveniently forgetting that those same Founding Fathers specifically and explicitly excluded God from the constitution you now cling to e.g:

        Article 6 : No religious test shall ever be required as a Qualification to any Office or public Trust under the United States

        All of the “In God We Trust” nonsense in things like the motto, pledge of allegiance, currency etc. was added in the 1950s during the height of McCarthyism fear mongering.

        The gun lobby trades on fear, and yet in every other country that has what the NRA and others fear most (no right to carry law, sensible controls on gun possession, what you cutely referred to as an “encroaching tyranny”) the incidence of gun crime is a fraction of what America has.

        Finally, the second amendment is an anachronism. Quite apart from the ambiguous language, it’s something that was clearly of its time. You know what the third amendment says?

        “No Soldier shall, in time of peace be quartered in any house, without the consent of the Owner, nor in time of war, but in a manner to be prescribed by law”

        You want to have a shot at telling me the third amendment has any relevance now whatsoever? It’s the same with the second amendment and the non-existent need of “a well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State”.

        You need to grow up.

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  • http://xaymag.com Mike Sanavonxay

    This man is a complete joke and disgrace to humanity. His failed attempt to add humor to a letter for a grieving father, who just lost his 20 year old son, is not only in bad taste but evil!

    According to this second grade essay, that wraps up with “In conclusion”, the plumber implies that he knows for sure this sociopath is an Obama-voter, but he will wait until it is official. So by his own argument 69 million Americans are sociopaths.

    Joe needs to get off the computer and stop making a fool out of himself. He is not an important figure and is not well respected by anybody of significance. I’m sure there are tons of pipes that need to be drained.

    even in the face of this horrible incident by this sad and insane
    individual. I almost said “Obama Voter” but I’m waiting for it to be
    officia
    Read more at http://barbwire.com/2014/05/27/open-letter-parents-victims-murdered-elliot-rodger/#0DpqoObI36ykUY2R.99

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  • LeifCairn

    Joe who?

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  • brantl

    Joe the fake plumber, with his same old silly crap. Funny how many sane democracies have limited gun rights, and dropped the gun-related death rate like a stone. Get some facts, Joe. But then, you’d have to stop calling yourself a plumber, wouldn’t you?

  • chris1990

    Far out people, some of you need to have some compassion…..the man just lost his son

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  • Matthew Bailey

    “There’s nothing I like less than bad arguments for a view I hold dear.”
    ― Daniel C. Dennett

    • Arthur Adams

      Would that more gun supporters were like you.

      I’m not a gun owner, but I’m not a supporter of strong gun regulation either. But when Joe-the-not-really-a-plumber essentially says “eff you” to a grieving father, when I see idiots in Texas carrying rifles at a fast food joint, it’s convincing me and plenty of other people to support stronger regulation.

      • Matthew Bailey

        Thank you Arthur. It is a bad argument because what will anyone reflect on but how provocative he was? He could have made a million great points and people would still just remember he came off insulting to grieving parents. So he succeeds in getting attention he has not had in some time, but he can now not be taken seriously. Which hurts the whole pro-gun argument because “look at that jerk who thinks like you do.” He was insensitive but also stupid.

  • VincentArchuleta

    If people care, if the NRA cares, if you truly care:

    Allow into the argument that there are some people who shouldn’t have a gun.
    Allow that there be a national background check before a citizen is issued a gun.
    Make it harder to get a gun than to get a driver’s license.

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  • scootpeep

    JoeThePlumber is making LarryTheCableGuy look serious and sane. Joe is afraid after the Newtown and Aurora tragedies and now Santa Barbara, his guns will taken away, but this is more publicity for his “post fail political run” website. I don’t believe in his sincerity as with most politicians or public figures of his ilk. Mr. Martinez’s( a military vet and former gun owner) powerful public response to his son’s shooting death has to have shook Joe’s pipes, so he write this letter. ALL the victims’ families and friends should be offended by this opportunistic scribe. Don’t think Mr. Martinez will back off anytime soon, Joe.

  • mom_carmina

    Elliot Rodger DID have help – he saw multiple therapists from the time he was a child. The authorities were alerted, his therapist alerted his mom – but he STILL got weapons and more rounds of ammunition than anyone who isn’t planning a mass murder needs. Your argument doesn’t stand up, fake plumber guy.

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  • felixzacat

    Joe the fake Plumber is an awful human being. He values human life less than his own gun fetish. And to be so disrespectful to the parents of the dead is beyong the pale.

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  • KS

    Joe the plumber, please crawl back into the hole from whence you came!

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  • verneoz

    All the knee-jerk “take away all guns” screeching we hear is both foolish and short sighted. If every gun owned by law abiding citizens was taken by the government, guess who would still have theirs? Yep, the criminals, and the psychopaths will still get to their guns to commit mayhem. What will be next, taking all knives, taking all cars – because that psycho used them to kill and maim too? If more government control is what you gun haters want — start passing some laws to make it easier to forcibly admit people displaying proclivities for killing somebody; AND to keep in confinement dangerous people who will not take their medications or display tendencies to want to kill and maim other people. BTW, 1-2 concealed carry witnesses would have come in handy that day these people died too.

    • Dawn W

      While I agree with you on what you say, I have to say that Joe here is a complete idiot and doesn’t use cohesive thought to say what some of us are thinking. He makes those of us trying to keep our rights from an over inflated federal government look like him sadly. When we aren’t him.

  • usorthem3

    The face and mentality of the GOP, Christians in the USA. Aren’t you proud of the I got mine so screw you stance conservatives take?

    • Dawn W

      Well I’m neither GOP or Democrat. I’m a Christian however tho I see a ton of other so called Christians that are hypocritical bigots. I don’t have a denomination. This guy is not the face however of some of us who do stand by the Constitution. We have the right to keep and bear arms. The law enforcement in that area however should be totally ashamed of themselves because they didn’t take the proper steps in making sure that this young man didn’t hurt others. They knew weeks in advance but never bothered to search his residence as allowed by CA law. Is it because his father is one of the directors on the Hunger Games? Who knows since money always talks. But Joe here seems to have it back asswards on WHY we have the 2nd. He’s using his first however to act like a total @** and make those of us who are actually normal people that are worried about our freedoms being eroded look like idiots and I’m being nice here lol. Not all of us are like him so please don’t lump us all together.

      • Arthur Adams

        His parents were, in fact, very concerned about him and had contacted various authorities. It seems very unlikely the police failed to search his residence because his father was “connected” — if anything, this demonstrates his father’s position did not help out in this case.

        Anyway. assistant director is not that big a deal. It’s presumably a good job, but not the kind that gives you a name to throw around to get your way.

        • Dawn W

          I know his parents did contact authorities. Hence why they had the youtube stuff. The police in his area failed both the families and the victims in this. As usual it seems these days sadly. And sadly we have men like Joe who use this to try and gain back his 15 minutes of fame by spitting on the family and acting like a knuckle dragging moron. But to blame the NRA and the politicians when he should have been blaming the people in the building behind him was out of line also. This left and right crap has to stop because as of this moment the divide and conquer strategy is winning out in this country.

    • angelsinca

      Let’s bow our heads in silence and grasp this opportunity to turn these tragedies into a ridiculous political statement about conservatives. Yep, God is pretty much dead here.

      • usorthem3

        “We establish no religion in this country, we command no worship, we
        mandate no belief, nor will we ever. Church and state are, and must
        remain, separate.

        All are free to believe or not believe, all are
        free to practice a faith or not, and those who believe are free, and
        should be free, to to speak of and act on their belief.

        At the
        same time that our Constitution prohibits state establishment of
        religion, it protects the free exercise of all religions. And walking
        this fine line requires government to be strictly neutral.”

        Your “god” not mine.

  • Dawn W

    Ok I follow my constitution but even this guy is a freakin nut job. I offer condolences to the family but at this moment he shouldn’t be blaming the gun. He should be blaming the Sheriffs Dept. for not using CA law. The gun that was used was illegal by CA law and the cops knew about the mental instability of the young man. By CA law they had the right to search the young mans home W/OUT a warrant to check for weapons. While we do have a 2nd Amendment Right to keep and bear arms, someone who is mentally unstable should have had the home searched WEEKS before he went on a spree. The police had the youtube vids and all. The father of this young man was a director for the Hunger Games so not like the father didn’t have the money to get his son treated and or put into a facility till they could get him mentally stable. It seems these people ALWAYS pick gun-free zones for this sort of thing. Why? Because just that…no one can fight back. What about the families of the people the boy killed? Do you see them on the news with a fake script blaming the NRA and politicians? No you don’t. The boy was going to kill whether he had a gun or not as shown by killing his room mates with a knife and also using his car. The reason the kid gave for this? Because girls wouldn’t sleep with him and because he wasn’t popular. Not a good enough reason to take someone else’s life kiddo. Do not pass go, do not collect $200.

  • smorkingapple

    The fantasy tales these guys tell themselves is just sad. You are far more likely to hurt yourself with a gun than have to use it in self defense. These are just facts. The fact this guy had the gall to post something like this just to protect his fantasy land just speaks volumes to his character.

    It’s all good, what goes around comes around.

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  • Mike

    Hey Joe,

    Maybe you should stick to cleaning toilets and drains and give up the journalism stint. Taking shots at peoples ‘dead kids’ because of your constitutional rights isn’t the best look. Someone give this guy his plunger back.

  • a. tronetti

    Sorry. The right to life (liberty and happiness) certainly trumps the Second Amendment right to bear arms. All freedoms expressed in the Bill of Rights are subject to reasonable time, place and manner restrictions. The First Amendment guarantees free speech, but this freedom does not extend to shouting “fire” in a movie theater. It also curtails hate and commercial speech. Unfortunately, Joe the Plumber is not necessary a legal scholar, nor does he have empathy for those suffering a tremendous loss. Most would allow the parents to vent and grieve, and save debate for a more appropriate moment.

    • Lienathan

      Your analogy doesn’t hold. Shouting “Fire” in a movie theatre is illegal because it can cause other people harm due to the ensuing panic. The analogy is that the Constitution protects the right to keep and bear arms, but assaulting and/or murdering someone with one is illegal. In California they have plenty of laws on the books that made what this psycopath did illegal, but that didn’t stop him, so another law is a useless and foolish redundancy.

      Guns are not going away. Genie’s not going back in the bottle, Pandora’s box is already open, horse is out the gate and down the road. Reality trumps utopian fantasy.

      • a. tronetti

        I must respectfully disagree. The analogy–that constitutional rights are subject to time, place and manner restrictions, is correct. They are not simply limited to life-threatening situation. Commercial speech is regulated in ways not designed to protect life/safety. Similarly, the right to be free from unreasonable searches is better observed in the exception, not the rule. I will admit that your last paragraph is a bit goofy. Other countries have enacted restrictions, and a restriction on magazines could be enacted. However, that would upset the corporate interests that have hijacked the NRA. We can’t have that.

        • Lienathan

          Laws regarding speech have the intent to curb speech that causes harm or threatens harm to others, as in the case of libel and slander, threats of violence, inciting to riot. The consequences of the speech can be life and limb but they can also be economic (copyright and trademark) or social.

          It just so happens that the stakes are a little bit higher with firearms, but the analogy still holds. The possession of the gun is not a crime. Use of the gun to inflict violence upon others without cause is a crime. (Self Defense and Warfare are the two obvious exclusions.)

          Other countries (and even states and cities in the US – California notably among them) may have enacted stricter controls, but violence has not stopped and gun crimes still happen, because people that don’t follow the law don’t care about the restrictions.

          You can think it’s goofy to say “you can’t successfully banish a technology from the face of the earth” But that doesn’t make it any less true.

  • Ericka

    If this person WAS an Obama voter, it was probably in support of more funding for mental health, which Democrats have been touting for years. Maybe if there had been more science and research, then this shooter could have gotten the help he needed earlier in life when someone recognized his symptoms!

  • Steve_in_MA

    You are not “Joe,” you ain’t no licensed plumber and you have no gun rights. We will take those away from you. The time has come to take away the instruments of mass murder from the hands of lunatics. If you won’t support reasonable regulation, then we’ll have to terminate the ability of all to have them.

    • Dawn W

      While I don’t agree with Joe here Steve I have to say that I don’t think you realize that there are just about as many gun laws in CA as there is in Chicago…look at how that’s helping them out by the way. Laws don’t keep them out of the hands of criminals. The law enforcement out in CA has the right by law to SEARCH your home if they have received calls about a mentally unstable person. The cops there KNEW 2 weeks in advance of this young mans intent and never bothered to search his home. The young man also had a gun that was against CA laws. So see even with a ton of restrictions if someone means to do harm they will. The police are just as guilty in this.

      • Steve_in_MA

        Dawn, thank you for your reply. I do not intend to be insulting, but your view is a myopic one. We don’t need laws to control the People. We need laws that control the manufacturers and sellers of firearms. They do obey the law, and regulation upon them is highly enforceable. When we outlaw the production and sale of things like machine guns and high-capacity magazines, those laws are generally widely obeyed, with only minor black market exceptions that can usually be traced and prosecuted. New York has 8 million people living within its city limits. There are millions of guns there. And you almost never hear of a problem with lawful guns there. All of the crime guns are smuggled in from states like Virginia and North Carolina, where the laws are lax by comparison. Chicago has the same problem. Lax gun laws in Indiana have smugglers flooding the ghettos (and gangs) with hand guns. People have this wrong headed notion that they have a right to have a gun, and that has wrongfully been supported by a ridiculous Supreme Court, that has interpreted the 2nd Amendment in a way that it has never been read before. Decisions like D.C. v Heller cannot and will not stand. Sanity will be returned and the citizenry of this Nation will be better for it.

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  • Conserbatives_conserve_little

    That was courteous, polite and sincere. I agree with the plumber.

    • Arthur Adams

      What plumber? This was written by an auto worker.

  • Conserbatives_conserve_little

    Keep in mind,we are note justvtalking about th Second Amendment, we are talking about all of them. If one is stripped they all are in danger.

    • JTQ

      That’s dumb thinking, but what can we expect? The ‘slippery slope’ doesn’t follow every cliche you bring.

  • Mo86

    I disagree with the constant practice of calling these murderers “insane”, “mentally ill” and the rest. He was sane enough to plan out this crime and to carry it out effectively. He was an evil man who committed an evil act. Period.

    To the rest of this letter I say BRAVO!

    (Though you know the only portion the liberal media will pick up on is: “your dead kids don’t trump my Constitutional rights.”

    That’s the only part they (and consequently most of America) will see. It will be incorporated into the Narrative. Joe will portrayed as a monster – much more of a monster than the REAL one, which is the one who committed these murders.

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  • Guest

    This right to bear arms should be looked at in historical context. When that Amendment was passed, people had muskets. I, therefore, agree that everyone has the right to bear a musket. Would that satisfy you, Joe the Plumber?

    • Lienathan

      In keeping with your philosophy, you are from now on only allowed to participate in mass communication utilizing a quill pen and/or printing press. Deal?

  • NepotismIsDomesticTerrorism

    I don’t believe that the teachers and/or his parents allowed David out of detention long enough to father a child.
    And can you imagine any woman who’d have (ahem) relations with David?
    I mean, there’s always the Kellyanne Conway types who sell themselves for money, but her mark, Georgie Conway, is a seven- or eight-figure legal type. Can’t see David, fine Amerikin (sic) that he is, with that kind of scratch.

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  • http://www.elliotthermanwallace.com/blog RealCoolCowboy

    Hey Joe:

    You are a cowardly, selfish moron.

    That’s all.

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  • anothervoter1

    IMO, he didn’t write this.

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  • batguano

    This article shows the conservative philosophy of, “A knowledgable person should never comment on what they have knowledge of.” E.g. climate scientists, 9/11/2001 victim families, Newtown victim families, economists, academicians, etc. etc. The Conservatives think that the expert is in it for personal gain, however this is just projection: Conservatives push their own agendas for personal gain all the time, so why wouldn’t everyone?

  • Patrick J. Kiger

    There’s nothing more pathetic than a guy who was briefly and marginally famous six years ago, and now is desperately trying to get attention.

  • Bob W. Ryley

    Joe, the guy who never was a plumber, celebrity status and fifteen minutes of fame should have ended a long time ago. His meaningless dribble is just that, dribble intended to keep his fake name alive for fun and profit.

    That aside, anyone who claims that better, more thorough background checks are an intrusion on their Second Amendment rights is either a flunky for the gun industry or the NRA or just plain delusional.

    There are those who just hate Obama. They will attack anything he says or proposes. If he doesn’t say or do anything about an issue they will make something up and then spread the rumor via Beck, Rush, and chain emails blasts. This fear that Obama is a threat to gun ownership is what the NRA – a trade group representing the gun industry – has used to jack up sales. The huge spike in gun and ammo sales since January 20, 2009 when the President took office, has the gun companies and Wayne LaPierre laughing like hell. They have so fooled gun owners it’s simply pathetic.

    In this instance the most significant proposal – and one that would pass if a vote were permitted – is a measure to enhance background checks. It nothing short of freaking absurd for the NRA or anyone else to claim this threatens anyone’s legitimate gun rights.

    Those who oppose making background checks more effective are part of the problem. They spread fear, and advance paranoia that people’s guns are going to be confiscated. It’s not going to happen. No one wants you guns. And those of us who hate guns know we have no prayer of trying to get them. You can keep your freaking guns. I don’t want them now or in the future.

    If you are a sensible gun owner, sportsman, target shooter, or just a collector, I have no problem with any of that. But damn, wake up and realize that you are being used by a trade group whose only goal is to sell more guns. And their marketing strategy is to spread fear. Better background checks is not going to bring gun violence to a halt. But it just might prevent some shootings. Maybe the person who gets spared will be your friend or family member. Is that not a good thing?

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  • HammerheadMike

    Most of you have never (and you should be thankful for this) had a gun shoved in your face, let alone be shot. I’ve seen what is coming, and you are nowhere near ready for it! He may have chosen the wrong words, but his sentiment is right!

    • JTQ

      Jesus Christ, Mike – did you NOT take your myriad pills again today?

      • HammerheadMike

        Did that make you feel better?

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  • yeahrightttttttttttt

    “There are no critical words for a grieving father. He can say whatever he wants and blame whoever he’d like – it’s okay by me. You can’t take a step in his shoes – at least I can’t.” but an obnoxious comment like “your dead kids don’t trump my Constitutional rights.” oh thats ok? God forbid it happens to you, maybe you would have more empathy instead of using this as a platform of self promotion. shame on you

  • JTQ

    jtplumber is one of the biggest losers in American history. A sad, sad little person.

  • LAS

    Thank you Joe! You made it so much cleaner and easier for everyone by proving your own stupidity so efficiently. I really appreciate it.

    • p51dman

      Are you saying that everyone should forfeit their right to protect themselves and loved one due to the actions of someone with mental illness?

  • John1966

    About time somebody stood up like a man and said it like it is. Tears are no substitute for truth.

    • bobsoper

      Yes, indeed mr. Martinez did stand up like a man and speak truth, through his tears. Meanwhile, J the P just demonstrated once again his supreme douche-baggery.

  • RedneckCryonicist

    My thinking about Elliot has evolved after reading that his father had financial problems. At first I thought, hey, he came from a wealthy family, and he had the money to pursue whatever course of self-development he wanted. In that area he really had nothing to complain about.

    But given his real financial situation, he still had options that I didn’t have at his age by growing up in a lower middle class family in Tulsa in the 1960′s and 1970′s, just one generation removed from rural Southern poverty. He could have traded down his car and put the difference into savings, lived frugally and thought hard about a feasible strategy to get to a better situation in life.

    He could also have chosen a more realistic strategy for his sexual socialization by dating Asian, Latina or mixed race girls who would understand his problems in finding his identity in a diverse society where white people still set many of the standards. If he had a sexually receptive girlfriend, that would have taken the edge off of his emotional problems and he might have turned out all right.

    I haven’t run across anything about the books Elliot read, if any. But I’ve noticed that Roosh and his fellow bloggers regularly post essays on the classic works of literature they’ve read, including ones I hadn’t heard of by Renaissance humanists. This subculture has taken a lot of crap in the last few days, but at least some of its writers show a capacity for a reflective philosophical outlook on life that belies the perception that they only care about getting hot girls out of their clothes. Elliot would have done well to follow their example in pursuing his self-development.

  • http://freespeechforall.wordpress.com/ TJ Johnson

    What a classless and tasteless letter from Joe the Plumber. It’s yet another flashing neon sign saying that the NRA has hijacked this nation and is enabling mass murder. Once upon a time, the NRA supported background checks and other reasonable regulations to keep us safe. Now, they want to arm everyone to the hilt so that America continues to kill more than 10,000 of our own each and every year, when most western countries suffer fewer than 100 gun deaths a year.

    This has got to stop. There are 237,000,000 adult Americans who are NOT members of the NRA. It’s time to take back our country and shut this maniacal organization down.

    • PhilKnox

      I am surprised you have not mentioned the Koch Brothers another boogeyman of the left. You lefties are so predictable.

  • p51dman

    Outstanding Joe, I made a similar comment on a youtube video.

    • bobsoper

      Apparently disqus no longer allows down-rating of comments. Too bad, in this case.

      • p51dman

        What? You don’t have the ability to comment on the article, so you choose to go after someone?

  • bobsoper

    J the P demonstrating why he is perfectly emblematic of the American right wing: its bloodlust, ignorance, cruelty and stupidity have found an apt representative.

    • PhilKnox

      This is no different than the self-righteousness, delusional thinking, incompetence, and other general foolishness of the leftwing as evidenced by the many posts here.

      • bobsoper

        The left wing in this country has been decimated by 4 decades of union-busting, corporate-friendly democrats, and apathy. Meanwhile, the right wing controls 99% of talk radio, the country’s top-rated 24-hour cable “news” channel –and no, MSNBC isn’t “left wing,” it’s centrist & corporatist with only one bona fide leftist (Chris Hayes), one center-leftist (Maddow), and of course a right-wing Republican ex-congressman (Scarborough) who gets a 3-hour morning show– the right wing has taken over several state houses and the Republican Party itself, thanks to massive financial support from corporate interests and selfish billionaires.
        There is no effective left wing in this country, it had been systematically destroyed by big money.

  • jabberwookie

    Moms Demand CUTLERY CONTROL NOW!

  • Adam Long

    Sick idiots like this don’t care about children dying from guns. This disgusting, soulless monster has admitted here that he’d rather see more kids blood in the schools, streets, and theaters of America than have a reasonable conversation about the deadly addiction to gun culture in America. You think “dead kids don’t trump your Constitutional rights?” Then what does it take before people will start to see common sense? Listen, ‘Joe the Plumber’: Your view of “Constitutional rights” is selfish and warped beyond belief. If our founding fathers could see the way these backwards cavemen have interpreted their words they’d be ashamed. I doubt Jefferson, Adams, and the others who drafted the Constitution would have been okay knowing that it meant innocent American children, women, soldiers, hell, you name it, would be randomly gunned down in large groups for NO REASON every couple of weeks. What’s worse is he tries to blanket his soulless, inane letter with compassion. “Your dead kids does not trump my Constitutional rights” is about the most uncompassionate, DISRESPECTFUL thing you could say to people who are grieving their murdered children. You say you can’t take a step in the shoes of a grieving parent? Then SHUT UP and let them grieve. You have no right to tell them how to feel, and your opinion on the matter is invalid. We have created a society that terrorizes itself with its obsession with guns and violence because of people with the immaturity and twisted mentality of Joe Wurzelbacher.

    • PhilKnox

      You were able to extrapolate that Joe doesn’t care about kids from this letter. Neither logic or history are your strong suits.

      • Adam Long

        Where did I say that, PhilKnox? I see reading is not your strong suit. Also, what exactly would any of this have to do with history?

        • PhilKnox

          re-read your 1st couple of sentences. Try again. You are the one that brought up history.

          I would like to introduce you to some comments by Jefferson

          “Those who hammer their guns into plowshares will plow for those who do not.”
          Thomas Jefferson

          • PhilKnox

            “The supposed quietude of a good man allures the ruffian; while on the
            other hand arms, like laws, discourage and keep the invader and
            plunderer in awe, and preserve order in the world as property. The same
            balance would be preserved were all the world destitute of arms, for
            all would be alike; but since some will not, others dare not lay them
            aside … Horrid mischief would ensue were the law-abiding deprived of the
            use of them.”
            Thomas Paine

          • PhilKnox

            “The great object is that every man be armed.” and “Everyone who is able may have a gun.”
            Patrick Henry

          • PhilKnox

            “The best we can help for concerning the people at large is that they be properly armed.”
            Alexander Hamilton

            The Federalist Papers at 184-8

          • PhilKnox

            “To preserve liberty, it is essential that the whole body of the people
            always possess arms and be taught alike, especially when young, how to
            use them.”
            Richard Henry Lee

          • Adam Long

            Actually, yes, I do believe the Constitution is archaic. It was written over 200 years ago in a much different world, under much different circumstances, and has barely been updated in the last hundred years to reflect modern society. The second amendment was not written with the intention of turning Americans into violent, gun-obsessed, immoral jackasses, but that is what has happened. And the worst part is that these gun nuts are so stubborn that they refuse to admit that maybe, JUST MAYBE, their deadly hobby, this “freedom” that they have to have is actually taking AWAY freedom, security, and lives from innocent, peaceful people at unprecedented levels. I’ve lived 33 years of peaceful life on Earth without ever owning a gun. Why are so many people convinced they need them? If someone is desperate enough to break into my house for my stuff, well, stuff can be replaced. Lives cannot. If someone breaks into my house with the intention to kill me (I can’t see why on Earth this would happen), well, they’re probably not going to wait for me to go get my gun, are they? People who use guns do not do so with the intention of a fair or honorable fight. That is the problem with guns in America – the more guns, the less honor among citizens.

          • Adam Long

            So, these quotes, according to you, mean that our founding fathers also supported the mass murder of children? You are just as delusional as your friend Joe. All I said was that our founding fathers probably would not have advocated the murder of innocent children in our schools, and I stick by that statement. Your quotes are from a time when weapons were a totally different thing. No one could shoot up an elementary school with a musket.

          • Adam Long

            Just read one of your quotes earlier that you think supports your argument: “Horrid mischief would ensue were the law-abiding deprived of theuse of them.” Elliott acquired his guns legally. I think he pulled of some pretty “horrid mischief” with them. Your arguments and quotes are archaic and irrevelant to today’s society. If you’d like to join me in 2014, please feel free.

          • PhilKnox

            So the Constitution is archaic? ok now you are out of the closet.

          • DTansy

            How about that KNIFE you keep forgetting there, Long?

            Hypocrite much?

          • PhilKnox

            Again logic is not your strong suit. Believing in a freedom, in your mind, is the same as supporting an illegal activity. That is called a non-sequitur.

      • bobsoper

        Oh I’m sure that J the P cares a lot about kids… at least, up until the time they’re born, at which point he and wingnuts like yourself don’t give a sh*t.

  • Craig Hutcher

    Wow Joe, you really have a pension for cutting right to the heart of the matter and showing your complete ignorance at what is at the heart of this debate: The NRA’s need to show a small sliver of the population they will not be regulated. As a former ranked NRA marksman, I learned gun safety as a boy and see NO reason for the current lack of gun policy in this country. When is enough enough? Will it be when one of your children is cut down in a hail of bullets by a stranger while walking down the street? Or sitting on your lawn playing with your dog? When Joe? When?

    • PhilKnox

      what gun policy is lacking in this case? How many more laws are needed?

  • Dull Knife

    “[S]top playing into the hands of the folks who merely capitalize on these horrific events for their own political ends.”

    Folks like Joe the Plumber’s Crack?

    • DTansy

      Hey Dull, the KNIFE the little scumbag used to STAB 3 PEOPLE TO DEATH WITH, does that NOT count? Or are you so dull as not to have READ THAT PART?

  • PhilKnox

    In a letter to a William Dawes, Jefferson quotes another
    “The laws that forbid the carrying of arms are laws of such a nature.
    They disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit
    crimes…. Such laws make things worse for the assaulted and better for
    the assailants; they serve rather to encourage than to prevent
    homicides, for an unarmed man may be attacked with greater confidence
    than an armed man.”

    - Thomas Jefferson (quoting 18th century criminologist Cesare Beccaria)

    • Adam Long

      That was the 1700s, Phil. Things have changed a little since then. Maybe you haven’t noticed, but slavery is illegal now, women can vote, and there was a huge civil rights movement. It’s called a progressive society.

      • PhilKnox

        Why do you keep adding arguments that I have not made? Is your grasp of rhetoric so feeble that you have to resort to such tactics?

        • Adam Long

          Because you are not making arguments, you are throwing out irrelevant quotes. Thomas Jefferson said that in the 1700s. He didn’t say it today and he certainly WOULDN’T say it after a tragedy like UCSB, Sandy Hook, Aurora, etc. Yet, you bring up their quotes like the founding fathers would defend mass murderers.

  • kathleen

    So glad you’ve turned this terrible loss of life into something useful– a way to extend your fifteen minutes of fame.

  • 279bluered

    Dear Mr. Wurzelbacher: you seemed confused about what you perceive to be your patriotic duty. Criticizing a parent in a time of grief like this is not anyone’s place, much less patriotic duty. Who exactly are you that you feel compelled to write an open letter to anyone you do not know? If you want to address the issues of the second amendment and gun control, leave the grieving families out of it.

    • DTansy

      ” leave the grieving families out of it.”

      CAN’T leave the “grieving families out of it” when they are the ones trying to spread the STUPID. The GUN didn’t kill anyone. The KNIFE didn’t kill anyone. A WELL-TO-DO “problem child” is RESPONSIBLE FOR THE MURDERS. Get your ignorant head on straight, or buy a clue.

      • 279bluered

        Hey sport–your response is precisely what continues to drive those who you perceive to be opponents of the Second Amendment to demonize defenders of the Second Amendment. You engage in insulting me when you know nothing of my views on the subject. My post addressed the self assumed notoriety of the Joe the Plumber guy for continuing to propel his name and persona for personal fame and fortune at the expense of the grieving parent. That the father lashed out at the NRA and the bought and paid for Congressional representatives and Senators can be understood, irrespective of your views on the Second Amendment. The fact that an obviously mentally ill individual can load up for a killing spree is a problem in this country; when its your child murdered, the parent will look to blame. So Joe the plumber–write your letter to your congressional reps; leave the father alone.
        Now to address your insult and to get my ignorant head on straight pal–I come from a family of hunters and I defend the Second Amendment and the inalienable right to defend oneself and homestead. As an attorney, I have represented sportsman’s clubs, and am fully versed on the legal arguments concerning the Second Amendment. I also believe that background checks should only be feared by those who have something to hide; you know like criminals and the mentally insane. Those checks do not erode the Second Amendment.

  • Michael

    Someday this country will wake up and repeal the odious 2nd Amendment and join the rest of the civilized world.

    • PhilKnox

      Why don’t you give it a shot? Don’t think the Democrats will be foolish enough to try it this year. I will take freedom over so called security. The rest of the civilized world has already ditched freedom of speech. There are no such protections in Europe. They have long forgotten that freedom of speech means protecting unpopular speech.

      • http://www.acid-product.co.uk Ian Davies

        Actually, you need to familiarise yourself a little better with what the term actually means. “Freedom of speech” is simply the right of the individual to say what they want without fear of being arrested by the Government. What it doesn’t entitle them to is the freedom to say whatever they want without having to deal with any consequences from the rest of the population.

        • PhilKnox

          actually Ian it wasn’t the people that jailed David Irving. What David Irving said was reprehensible, but that doesn’t warrant a jail term. Holocaust Denial, is awful, but it warrants jail time in places like France, Germany, Austria, etc. I would educate yourself before you make more foolish comments.

          • http://www.acid-product.co.uk Ian Davies

            As I’m sure you know, Holocaust Denial is specifically categorised as a form of incitement to hate. It is not simply stating a personal opinion, and is so narrow in definition that invoking it does not prove your point.
            Also, sorry I wasn’t hunched over the keyboard, feverishly waiting to answer every impatient poster, instead of just getting on with my life…

          • PhilKnox

            what part of freedom of speech protects unpopular speech do you not understand? it does prove my point freedom of speech does not exist in places like Europe, Canada, Australia. Brigitte Bardot as convicted of inciting racial hared for criticizing certain Islamic practices. Doesn’t sound free to me. I may no like Westboro, but the have every right to do what they do.

        • PhilKnox

          If you actually knew what you were talking about, you would understand the problems that people like Brigitte Bardot and others were facing. But keep your head in the sand.

        • PhilKnox

          no comment Ian?

    • jabberwookie

      Sure, just like the Third Reich ushered in a new Pax Germana by enacting gun control, and subsequently, race and religion control. So full of sh!t your sewer vent hole is overflowing in the middle of your face. The geniuses that founded this country put it in there in 1791 to prevent the idiots that you vote into power from ruining it. George Washington didn’t reason with the British overlords, he shot them.

      • Michael

        ‘the idiots that vote into power’?? Does this mean that you don’t vote?

    • jabberwookie

      How’d that work out in the civilized country of Norway. You know, the one with strict gun control. Only the worst mass shooting by a single gunman in world history…..

      • Michael

        You’re right. The worst. But it was anomalous. Had there been one before? Has there been one since? Oh, and where did Anders Breivik get his high-capacity gun clips? From the US, because it was cheaper there than anywhere else. So even across the Atlantic, the NRA and its minions in Congress had a hand in ‘the worst mass shooting by a single gunman’…. Go, Murka!

  • Pingback: Joe The Plumber: ‘Your Dead Kids Don’t Trump My Constitutional Rights’ « CBS Cleveland

  • Jakeflyby

    Joe the Plumber is a real POS that needs to flush himself away.

  • http://indigestible.nightwares.com/ Warren

    ‘Your dead kids don’t trump my Constitutional rights.’

    Yes. Yes, actually, they do.

    • DTansy

      “Yes, actually, they do.”

      Another useful idiot with the jackassocrat talking points.

      IF DEAD CHILDREN “TRUMP” THE CONSTITUTION, HOW DO THEY NOT “TRUMP” ABORTION, douchebag?

      • http://indigestible.nightwares.com/ Warren

        Fetuses are not children.

        • PhilKnox

          really!!! are they are not living beings?

          • http://indigestible.nightwares.com/ Warren

            No. Expelled from the womb, they cannot survive on their own.

          • PhilKnox

            if that is your sole criteria neither can many individuals with dementia, Alzheimers, or other mental illnesses. How about those on life support?

          • http://indigestible.nightwares.com/ Warren

            Life support is easy: Pull the plug, if the brain is flatlined. Otherwise, look to living wills (which, if you’re at all a responsible person, you already have one of). Absent a living will, I’d say it’s up to the family to decide.

            For the rest, you’re talking about very late-stage levels of those illnesses, with a likely prognosis of death within a few months. This is what hospice is for: To provide end-of-life care for the terminally ill.

            This really isn’t very complicated. We only believe it has to be, and end up tying ourselves in knots.

          • PhilKnox

            You and I agree it is easy. It is question of morality. I have no problem with abortion for a woman’s health or in case rape and incest, but would restrict outside of that. The moral side protects life. The other side simply wishes to engage in behavior without consequences.

          • http://indigestible.nightwares.com/ Warren

            ‘The moral side protects life. The other side simply wishes to engage in behavior without consequences.’

            That’s a false dichotomy, since very few things are ever that clear-cut; however I think by and large we agree. I’d prefer abortion to be safe, legal, and rare. There are myriad ways to keep it rare, such as making birth control universally and freely available, along with comprehensive reality-based sex education. (Atop that, punishing rapists realistically – perhaps by prison terms along with chemical castration – would be a strong deterrent, as well as a guarantor against recidivism.)

            Abortion is also something I’ll never have to consider having, so I’m unwilling to condemn those who are forced to make that decision. I don’t imagine it’s as easy as, say, buying a loaf of bread, or as thoughtless or frivolous as deciding what shoes to wear.

          • PhilKnox

            actually it is not a false dichotomy. Those that favor abortion simply wish to have the means of avoiding the consequences of sex. The abortion becomes a matter of convenience, to argue otherwise is to be intellectually dishonest.

          • http://indigestible.nightwares.com/ Warren

            To suggest that a woman choosing to abort is doing so out of ‘convenience’ demeans her, overlooks the emotional and psychological toll it takes, and oversimplifies the discussion to the point of silliness. If abortion were convenient or easy, in any way at all, there’d be abort-o-matics in every women’s room in the nation, right next to the tampon dispensers.

            ‘The consequences of sex’ … how does that fit into the notion of ‘It’s a child, not a choice’, though? I mean if it’s a ‘consequence’ … that strikes me as rather dehumanizing. Almost a punishment: ‘You had sex? Well now you’re getting what you deserve.’ You might not have intended it that way, but that’s the subtext.

            And yes, the arbitrary moral/immoral division is a false dichotomy, because reality simply is not a set of clear black/white, either/or choices.

            One example of many possibilities. We say killing is wrong … except in the case of murderers … or when defending one’s own life (or in some cases property) … or if one is a law officer engaged in the line of duty … or if one is in a ‘stand your ground’ state … or when going to war. So no, killing is not absolutely, always wrong. Sometimes it’s considered meritorious.

            Do you see where I’m going with this? There is no clear distinction between ‘moral’ and ‘immoral’, in some cases; there’s only more harmful versus less harmful. Context dictates behavior, and context must dictate our responses to behavior.

            Rather than looking for distinctions between ‘moral’ and ‘immoral’ people, then, perhaps we’d all be better off trying to be wiser.

          • PhilKnox

            If this argument helps you sleep better. Reason for abortion include physiological, financial, health, personal ambition, selfishness, etc. With the exception of health all fit into matters of convenience. Outide of health can you think of any reason that does not involve convenience? and are you really arguing the moral equivalency of self defense and abortion?
            you also assume that the word consequence is always negative. every human action brings forth a set of consequences. I am no prude, but you are on very flimsy rhetorical ground to suggest that sex does include consequences. Abortion exists simply to allow women a means to avoid the consequence of unwanted pregnancy. It can be unwanted for a number of reasons, most having something to do with convenience.
            I feel for you that you simply cannot grasp that simple concept, but that is what you get when you attempt to rationalize certain behavior.

          • http://indigestible.nightwares.com/ Warren

            Please reread what I wrote, this time for comprehension, rather than through a rhetorical bias. Then respond to what I actually said, instead of the restatements you’ve made in the interest of erecting and knocking down strawmen.

          • PhilKnox

            I understood fully what you wrote that is why I framed it as a question for your response, and I took exception to your inferences.

          • PhilKnox

            here is an article from an individual that would agree with you. Yet this individual probably was blinded by their own emotionalism to see their lack of logical consistency. sine this website does not link links i will post this for you to find it it is from bad atheist wordpress abortion as a matter of convenience. here is the quote

            “Never mind that such women experience greater amounts of poverty,
            stunting their growth and that of their child – it is just a matter of
            convenience. Never mind that such women need more financial help in
            the form of welfare programs than the rest of the population; and then
            get damned by many for needing it – it is just a matter of convenience.
            Never mind that such children experience more abuse, on average do not
            do as well in school, and tend to have more health issues – it is just a
            matter of convenience.

            What a terrible way to frame this decision – either major crime and a
            matter of life/death or a mere matter of convenience. Nothing lies in
            between those extremes. Emotional, financial, and anything else are
            matters of mere convenience.

            When my wife and I were younger and were living from paycheck to one
            week short of the next paycheck, our financial situation did not feel
            like a matter of mere convenience. When friends and family members
            experienced depression and other mental issues that caused lost workdays
            and even lost jobs, emotional issues did not feel like a matter of mere
            convenience. When a couple finds out that the child they had been
            joyfully expecting will be born, but so badly damaged that the child
            will live only for a short time before mercifully dying – they did not
            feel the pain and suffering wrought by this knowledge a matter of mere
            convenience.”

            poverty, financial means are all matters of convenience. it may sound harsh, but that does not change the fact.

          • PhilKnox

            the above argument from that individual is emotionalistic rhetorical nonsense. it panders to emotion and not logic.

          • PhilKnox

            this comes right from Roe v Wade

            “in some critical respects abortion is of the same character as the
            decision to use contraception . . . . for two decades of economic and
            social developments, people have organized intimate relationships and
            made choices that define their views of themselves and their places in
            society, in reliance on the availability of abortion in the event that
            contraception should fail.”

          • PhilKnox

            98% of abortions are elective

        • DTansy

          So, has a BRILLIANT “blob-of-cells” like yourself ever taken a class called “biology”? That high-powered 3rd grade education of yours stopped a little short of graduation, eh?

          Did someone tell you it was going to be a Tonka toy? An X-box? Maybe a big-screen TV?

          Unless you can EVER show how an organism that is replicating is NOT “life”, but rather, oh, I don’t know, CONTACT LENSES, maybe you’ll convince someone, somewhere, that such blither is fact.

          But not a BIOLOGY TEACHER. Go back to school, you really need it.

          • http://indigestible.nightwares.com/ Warren

            I’m not going to take the time to educate a nitwit, particularly one so dense s/he can’t even respond to something but two months after it’s posted, but I’ll give you a clue: Fetuses are incapable of ‘life’ independent of the womb.

            They die when you cut them away.

            Like a tumor, or the nondescript mass you’ve got between your ears, the sole purpose of which is clearly to keep your head from caving in.

  • sgtnitnoy

    The key is proper and decent parenting, from the day the child is born into this cruel world. Pointing fingers and spewing blames around like a shotgun, no pun intended, is way too late since the deed, very sadly has taken place at the expense of other people. Parents assuming others will take care of the problem just will not do nor mental health care givers who are inept at their profession.

  • Tom Paine’s Ghost

    “Joe” the “Plumber” remains as tone-deaf as ever. Nice to see some things never change.

    • PhilKnox

      Unfortunately, for you, Thomas Paine would not agree with your argument.

  • PhilKnox

    You leftwingers pride yourselves on your intellects, yet all I see is catering to emotion and pandering to the lowest common denominator. Talk about logically and morally bankrupt arguments.

    • Joseph

      The true fallacy of the ages is the claim that liberal thought(s) have intellectual component(s) imbedded within their considerations……..but what I measure with the tools of critical thinking is the glaring pattern of simplistic propensities to adopt derivatives of societal infringements repackaged as sophisticated conclusions……………idiots.

  • PhilKnox

    Perhaps you on the left should direct your anger about mental health to the ACLU since they are the ones that have made it more difficult for the state to commit these individuals to the proper facilities.

  • yfdgjr

    Wow, what a disgusting mess.

  • Elektra

    I fully support the second amendment. Specifically, I support the part that calls for REGULATION. Why do gun nuts like this moron always seem to forget that rather important word?

    Since the founding fathers apparently felt that guns were the only thing that should be regulated (no mention of regulation of food, water, education, etc) we should be regulating guns up the WAZOO, including (but not limited to) background checks, bans on uber-lethal weapons, and restricting guns sales to some individuals.

    Here is how I interpret the 2nd amendment: if you want a gun, go join your local well-regulated militia (try the Army). Otherwise go buy some mace, a taser, a dog, or (better yet) join the rest of us in reality.

    • PhilKnox

      Do you understand what comprises the militia? That law has not been changed.

    • PhilKnox

      Most of us do not wish to join you in your delusional cloud cuckoo liberal fantasy land.

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  • Ralphie0987

    PhilKnox please get whatever professional help that you can. It’s painfully obvious that you are another pin dicked gun owner and without the gun you have none

    • PhilKnox

      Ralphie do you enjoy looking at other men’s penises? Is that how you get your kicks? And you suggest I need the professional help.

  • Ralphie0987

    Yeah another mindless nut. How dare he say anything to the parents of the deceased children. A cold hard rule when you deal with death is to say no harm and his letter falls wayyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy short. I never have seen any rule that says it’s okay to use a child’s death for your political gains. Shame on you LowBlow Joe

    • PhilKnox

      The biggest nutjob here is you. Martinez, be engaging in public discourse opened himself up to this. Martinez is using for this political gain. I am betting you do not have the same sympathy for those hat blamed Obama or Clinton for their family members death, for example the family of slain Border Patrol Agent Brian Terry.

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  • Cuddgomiwnydd

    What Mr. Wurzelbacher fails to get is that it shouldn’t take the death of your own child by firearm to convince you of their danger. The Supreme Court has held that jurisdictions are well within their rights to regulate firearms as long as they are not outright banned. Mr. Wurzelbacher is a minor footnote in the back pages of recent American history and will soon be relegated to the obscurity he clearly deserves. Mr. Wurzelbacher fears the imaginary more than reality and as such probably should himself be on some watch list for weapon purchases.

    • PhilKnox

      and yet you felt the need to give him more time

      • Cuddgomiwnydd

        Yeah, i know. Sad. I agree.

    • johnrf

      It seems to me that conservatives only care about themselves. Joe the phony plumber will become opposed to gun rights when one of his children are murdered. Liberals oppose gun rights when children, not necessarily their own, are murdered. Kind of like Dick Cheney being one of the only republicans in favor of gay marriage because he has a gay daughter.

      • PhilKnox

        really??? Conservatives oppose gun control, because it means a less free society. That sounds pretty altruistic to me.

        • johnrf

          So why was DICK in favor of gay marriage but GW was not?

  • Josh Botts

    So let me get this straight… by banning guns and making them illegal to possess that will solve all of the random murders in this country? …….Because people who murder people obey laws? WTF People?

    • Cuddgomiwnydd

      You miss the point. No one– at least no one reasonable– is suggesting that guns be banned. Most rational people would prefer that guns be treated with the respect due to devices whose sole purpose is to kill, but what would this entail? Well, limiting purchases of firearms that can kill many people as quickly as possible would be a good start. Ownership of these firearms should require at least as much care as we require with car ownership, i.e. many hours of training and liability insurance. That would help limit many mass shootings. How many lives need be saved before you’d agree that it’s worth it?

      I don’t want you guns. Own as many as you want. Build you house out of them. I don’t care. But if one of your guns is used in a crime, YOU go to jail for a very, very long time.

      • Josh Botts

        No I’m pretty sure the argument is clear Ban guns to the general public..because every gun besides a muzzle loaded gun can kill multiple people quickly. But I’ll play along with the idea of stricter gun control will prevent mass shootings… Once again why would criminals obey stricter laws? I don’t disagree that any responsible gun owner should take classes or be required too..education will save lives undoubtedly but placing tighter restrictions on guns sold to citizens will only make the process more of a headache for law abiding citizens not criminals.

        • Eric

          “No I’m pretty sure the argument is clear Ban RPGs to the general public..because every RPG can kill multiple people quickly. But I’ll play along with the idea of stricter RPG control will prevent mass bombings… Once again why would criminals obey stricter laws? I don’t disagree that any responsible RPG owner should take classes or be required too..education will save lives undoubtedly but placing tighter restrictions on RPGs sold to citizens will only make the process more of a headache for law abiding citizens not criminals.”

          That is how ridiculous you sound to me. More so because the majority of people ABSOLUTELY ARE NOT arguing a total gun ban. But straw men don’t put up much of a fight.

          • Josh Botts

            I know Eric the truth is hard to cope with sometimes..but what specifically are you wanting if not an outright ban on guns? Judging by your terrible example of RPG’s i’m going to guess you know very little about current gun licensing and class for what you can legally purchase as an average joe (no pun intended). Last time I checked RPG’s are not the subject of debate and haven’t been used in any mass killings domestically so not sure why you wouldn’t have used tanks or chemical weapons?

          • Eric

            “what specifically are you wanting if not an outright ban on guns?”

            Let’s start with a federal mandatory waiting period. Every gun you could dream of, just sit patiently for a week. Let me guess…

            TYRANNY! This is America, we don’t sit patiently for anything.

            And the ‘RPG’ is meant as a gentle reminder that not all “arms” are created equal, that restrictions already do exist, and the real debate is not about total gun ban, but tighter regulation of gun sales.

          • PhilKnox

            and it some cases eric waiting periods have led to peoples deaths. I can think of one case of a battered wife in Maryland. why are you so opposed to people having the means to protect themselves? The government certainly wont do it for you. and how would that have changed any of these shootings?

          • Eric

            It’s already been linked to a drop in suicides, because suicidal people who get held up FREQUENTLY DON’T go on to kill themselves.

          • PhilKnox

            that makes absolutely no sense

          • Eric

            Because you can’t walk into a gun store, buy a gun, then walk out to the parking lot and shoot yourself.

            Or are you having trouble with the idea that the impulse to commit suicide is a temporary one rather than a permanent state of mind. If that’s the case, you’ve got some reading up on mental health to do. Anybody who thinks suicide only happens to crazy “other people” has no sense of the human condition.

          • PhilKnox

            that is not what you said in the comment above here is your comment, “it’s already been linked to a drop in suicides, because suicidal people
            who get held up FREQUENTLY DON’T go on to kill themselves.”

            your comment makes no sense “suicidal people who get held up frequently..”

          • Eric

            ‘…who get held up from committing suicide, frequently…’ is what I should’ve wrote.

          • Josh Botts

            Ok, mandatory waiting or “cool off” period I would support. So much that it is reasonable (48hrs to a week) and it was clearly defined to never be tampered with after.
            While I do understand why you would expect me to start crying Tyranny.. I’m not that kind of guy. But I do understand those kind of people and although I think most of the times they just like getting worked up about nothing… but.. a BIG but …let’s just say those people are right and the Fed are prepping to kill us… well then the argument doesn’t seem so absurd. These kind of people are reinforced by the deception and outright lies the Fed’s perpetuate everyday.
            Anyways
            RPG’s are limited to class 1 gun owners.. which is nearly impossible to acquire class 1 unless you actually need it and it is tightly regulated. Like guns, states are not created equal and have different demographics and problems. This is why typical blanket Federal Regulation angers those who live in Montana but make people in NYC happy. Fortunately our prudent leaders figured this out when creating the foundation for this country and allowed states some degree of separation from the Fed while still being apart of the union. While I would agree minor…very minor changes would possibly save lives, I do think it’s actually a good thing change happens slowly in this country. But I still think restrictions will only hamper the .001% of potential gun assaults because criminals don’t follow laws.

          • Eric

            “a BIG but …let’s just say those people are right and the Fed are prepping to kill us.”

            If someone really believed the Fed were prepping to kill us it would make all the sense in the world for them to want RPGs as a means of supreme defense.

            If someone was walking around trying to get an RPG because the government was gonna “get them”, everyone would think they’re crazy and call the police. But if someone walks around trying to get a high powered rifle with expanded clip capacity for the exact same stated reason, I’m supposed to see them as patriotic Americans?

            No. A crazy reason is a crazy reason. I don’t care if you’re asking for a butter knife. It’s scary.

            But this seems to be the #1 cited reason among people who are against ANY gun control. And so I find myself looking at the other side of the debate and thinking to myself, “you are the EXACT people I’m worried about owning a gun.”

          • Josh Botts

            Once again.. I’m lost on the RPG talk..
            First off “high power rifle” is redundant.. all rifles.. technically all guns that have powder loaded cartridges are high power.
            Second “extended clips” are already regulated with classes and it takes a class 1 in all states to have “banana clips” or fully automatic arms.
            No offense but I have a hard time taking an anti-gun person seriously when they clearly know little to nothing about firearms in general. Clearly you are resorting to media fused words that are overused and most of the time inaccurate technically speaking.
            I never said you should see them as a patriot or w/e term you choose to use. I was trying to use an example without going into basic self defense rights… but seeing that you didn’t get it Ill explain…Because no one can truly rely on the police or the government to prevent crime (homocide – democide) as it’s happening.. it’s your basic fundamental right as a being to defend yourself in harms way. So these people look to arm themselves with appropriate and sometimes excessive means to protect themselves and their families. Because the Fed has been downright criminal in some regards and when caught lies or covers it up the idea of taking it upon yourself to protect yourself and your loved ones is reinforced.
            So when the Fed wants to “strictly” regulate firearms there is no trust that the Fed will not abuse this responsibility and every time a Mentally Ill person kills someone will continue to become stricter and stricter till only the Gov’t and Criminals have weapons.
            While like I said earlier I’m not a tyranny! or Obama is Hitler person I do understand the logical fear of too much government. A simple study of history and government will show countless empires that have attacked portions of their own populations. So you can call it crazy but I would call it pessimistic realism.. and you who would rather ignore the possibilities because it’s a scary possibility; an optimistic delusional.

          • Eric

            Once again, the point is not about specific traits of specific guns. It’s about the fact that all guns and ammunition are not created equal. But let’s talk specifics…

            Barrett M82 50-Caliber Sniper Rifle
            M134 General Electric Minigun
            AK-47
            Bushmaster M4 Type Carbine

            If it comes to owning a weapon for personal/home defense and hunting/recreation, could we both agree that none of the above guns are essential? That you could access the full range of your gun rights without ever touching the above weapons. If so, why is it necessary for you to own them?

            If the only answer you’ve got is the “government’s coming”, then we have problems. Because, once again, an RPG would be very effective against an encroaching government too. They aren’t used much in crime, they’d be very traceable and not optimal for committing petty robberies, so why can’t I, a law abiding citizen, own this weapon that holds no specific defense or hunting purpose. It certainly COULD be legal…

            “A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.”

            See? The word GUN isn’t anywhere in there. I could interpret this as guarding my right to own an RPG for the sole purpose fighting possible government tyranny. Can you break down that passage in a way that definitively proves I’m NOT meant to own exploding missiles? I don’t think you can. Because it’s been left intentionally vague so that each generation can figure it out for themselves.

            So our question is, what arms are reasonable for a citizenry to bear? I move that the four above guns have no reasonable citizen purpose. I also move that the US military is far too powerful to be brought down by conventional weaponry. Since the only thing that could keep the US military at bay would be a tactical nuclear weapon, it’s absurd to suggest that “protection from tyranny” can stand alone as a weapon’s ONLY qualifier for legality.

            At this point the only way to protect ourselves from the full might of the US military is to weaken it with budget cuts. Ironically, many of the same gun advocates who talk about “defense from tyranny” HATE this idea, even though it’s their surest path to protection.

            It’s almost as if they’re being disingenuous about this whole “tyranny” thing and they secretly just want to shoot things with AWESOME weapons.

          • Cuddgomiwnydd

            I think we can agree that an average person with a six chamber revolver will kill fewer people than with an assault rifle in the same amount of time. From that perspective, the assault rifle is far more dangerous. I know that there’s some difficulty defining “assault rifle” but that’s fine. Let’s have that debate and focus on the biggest offenders.

            Will is stop criminals? No, but it’ll gradually get such weapons off the market. From where are these criminals getting these weapons, anyway? We might know except that NRA is against any method of tracking them, so we need to change that as well. All such weapons should not just be restricted for sale but also tracked. Law enforcement knows who owns them, and the owners are required to register them with local law enforcement when they move. Aren’t these weapons at least as dangerous to our kids as pedophiles?

          • Josh Botts

            The whole gov’t thing i’m honestly lost trying to read what your logic is… rpg’s are already banned under the class restrictions as explained.
            The 50 cal and M134 are completely different beast than an a AK 47 and M4… so much so that it is ILLEGAL to own the top 50 or M134 without being in a legal weapons class. But the other two can be purchased in most places in the US WITH restrictions (auto-semi-auto, Stock, clip size, barrel length..etc). Basically by time you purchase one of these guns after restrictions you have a stripped down standard rifle. I can tell once again you cherry picked some “scary” weapons and as I explained your average joe cant legally own the 50 or M134 I’ll address the other two AK and M4. You say they have no purpose of home defense or hunting… well once again you show you know nothing about weaponry. The AK 47 is revered because of it’s durability and maintaining operation after taking heavy abuse. A lot of hunters that are out for an extensive period of time do use AK-47′s for it’s reputation. Not to mention there are millions out there so the price for the quality is pretty much unparalleled. The M4 is often used for farmers to protect their crops from hogs, deer and other critters that will destroy their lively hood. These are just some basic examples but where I live I know people who have a very good reason to use these for domestic needs. Like I said earlier just because someone in NYC would have no productive use for them doesn’t mean a guy in Iowa wouldn’t. SO a city ordinance or state law may make sense but a Federal blanket law… hell no. Once again do you think that because there is a federal ban on these weapons that criminals will not get them? To show how ridiculous you sound… how about this. WE should limit all car sales to 4 cylinder because there is no need for someone to have a V6 or higher… they are dangerous and go to fast and kill people. Why would anyone but race car drivers need a V6 or higher? You know dui car crashes easily account for more deaths than guns do every year? Where’s the outrage? Go put your head back in the sand.

          • Eric

            If you can’t understand the RPG analogy by now I fear you never will. The point is… why not make them legal? Why not place less restrictions on the 50 cal or the M134? What REALLY makes them different in a way that is easily identified by the 2nd Amendment?

            Something tells me an M134 would do a damn good job at keeping critters off of a field too. Do YOU agree with the restrictions already placed on it? If so, how do you explain the logic of those restrictions? And how does that logic trump the 2nd Amendment’s vaguely worded “arms protection”?

  • Ralphie0987

    Dtansy if that’s true how come we outstrip any civilized country with murders or is it that the US has too many nuts.

    • PhilKnox

      yes ralphie, you are one of the many nuts in the US. the problem is in your self-righteous delusion you assume that you are perfectly sane.

  • Ralphie0987

    Guns+Nuts= Death simple Math What the gun nuts don’t get is normal people will at some point get sick of this crap.

    • PhilKnox

      i would not come to you as an expert on simple math. I would not come to you as an expert on anything but inane emotion filled rants.

    • Joseph

      Go park your car you idiot……….because you engage in a activity that kills 5x more individuals(innocent women and children) then murder by firearms. But you probably engage in that VERY self-serving process of Selective Moral Outrage, whereas YOU decide what life is expendable or not………..idiot.

  • Cuddgomiwnydd

    I’m curious to know why Mr. Wurzelbacher felt the need to contribute this rather ill-timed and belligerent screed. Any reasonable human– especially one with children– would have had the respect to wait at least until the dead had been buried before he verbally abused a grieving father. Is he attempting to claim the vacant leadership of the Westboro Baptist Church?!?

    • PhilKnox

      Perhaps because Mr Martinez chose to way in on this debate in front of 20k people.

  • johnrf

    What is the difference between Australia and the U.S.? And why do we have the most deaths by gun of any nation on earth? And please understand that many of us who have supported the right to own a gun are starting to realize that when the gun nuts and the NRA make it clear that they will never compromise we all start thinking about repealing the 2nd amendment.

    • PhilKnox

      and what compromise would you suggest that they make?

      • johnrf

        Background checks, mental health evaluations, restrictions on magazine size, automatic weapons, gun show loopholes, etc.

        I never hear any suggestions from the NRA except more guns and mocking those who want some restrictions. I’m no expert so the input from those with gun knowledge would be helpful but seems to be non-existent.

        I remember 50+ years ago when my father wanted to buy a gun for target practice. The police interviewed the neighbors and my mother and spent some time before approving his purchase. I think it took him at least a few weeks to complete the purchase. Is that so bad?

        • PhilKnox

          automatic weapons are already banned save a special tax stamp and thorough background check by the BATFE. the ACLU would prevent the menal health check, since they oppose Kendra’s Law. The gun show loophole is really overblown, and does not exist in most states. We already do background checks in NICS. I disagree on the magazine size issue.

        • PhilKnox

          50 years ago that was never the law in any state at that time. the first waiting periods came in the early 70s. guns were more readily and easily available until 1968 and yet we did not have these sensational mass shootings. I have a Sears catalog from 1967 which allowed you to buy a pistol in the mail.

          • johnrf

            this was my experience in the mid 60′s in NJ.

  • johnrf

    In Australia the firearm homicide rate fell by 59 percent, and the firearm suicide rate fell by 65 percent, in the decade after the law was introduced, without a parallel increase in non-firearm homicides and suicides.

    Gosh, maybe we should try this here…

    • PhilKnox

      you are forgetting to mention that burglaries and home invasions (breaking and entering when the resident is home) are considerably higher in Australia

      • Eric

        I would trade human lives for stuff any day, but to each his own.

        • PhilKnox

          I would trade security for freedom.

          • Eric

            Wow, that’s a non-sequitur. You got what I was saying, right? How high do burglary rates have to go before we look at each other and say, “Eh, let’s go back to killing.”?

          • PhilKnox

            Do you understand what non-sequitur means? apparently not

          • Eric

            It means your reply doesn’t logically follow from mine. Which it doesn’t. You may as well have written, “I would trade cookies for fried chicken.”

          • PhilKnox

            you may not like what I wrote, but that doesn’t mean that you are able to identify a non-sequitur and that is your problem, but I will spell it out for you.

            I would trade security (the false sense of well being in your gun free society example) for freedom (the knowledge that I have the means to protect my self, family and property).

          • Eric

            johnrf up there says the rate of DEATH fell in Australia. You counter that rate of THEFT is much higher. I say a less DEATH is preferable to more THEFT.

            Then you say something about security and freedom. I don’t get it. Between DEATH and THEFT, which of those is supposed to be the “secure” option. Which the “free” one?

            From my stand point that would be a non-sequitur (a statement that is not connected in a logical or clear way to anything said before it)

          • PhilKnox

            My argument followed precisely the pace and tone of the argument. Your problem with it is not a matter of logic, it is a matter of personal taste. John suggests that we should try Australia’s strict gun control. I state that argument is nonsensical

          • Eric

            That must explain your refusal to clarify what in God’s name your point was in the first place. I did the courtesy of going back over it. You just insulted me without actually showing me this supposed connection between DEATH/THEFT and SECURITY/FREEDOM.

            As a side note, I don’t exactly know what you mean by “personal taste”. Is there some sort of ‘debate aesthetic’ that I’m unaware of?

          • Eric

            Your definition of security is FALSE security and your definition of freedom is actually the definition of security. No wonder this was such a pain to drag out of you.

            And of course none of this still has anything to do with whether you’d prefer to live in a community with a higher murder rate or a higher burglary rate.

        • Jack in Ga

          They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.

          ~Benjamin Franklin

          • The Weeping Cheeto

            Liberty is people having the right not to be shot by Bubbas dropping their guns in Walmarts on a daily basis

          • Eric

            And of course we define “essential liberty” not as owning a gun, but as owning multiple, specific types of guns with very particular features and getting them as fast as possible background check be d*****.

    • Jack in Ga

      Rapes, Murders and Home Invasions skyrocketed in the UK after they banned firearms and those are still sky high today..

      It seems that this argument by the left to disarm Americans is less about saving lives than it is pushing a political objective. Where else do we blame inanimate objects?

      I don’t hear liberals calling for cars to be banned with tens of thousands of Americans are killed every year by Drunk Drivers abusing cars? Far more people die in car wrecks than do in shootings, unless maybe you’re in Chicago where they have the strictest gun control laws in the country and these accomplish nothing.

      • The Weeping Cheeto

        No, rapes, murders and home invasions have not skyrocketed. Stop lying about this. Also, very interesting how you completely ignored Australia.

        • Jack in Ga

          The Weeping Cheeto – If there is a liar here it is you and Obama and Democrats.

          * In 1968, Britain made the 1920 law stricter by requiring civilians to obtain a certificate from their district police chief in order to purchase or possess a shotgun. This law also required that firearm certificates specify the identification numbers (“if known”) of all firearms and shotguns owned by the applicant.[39]

          * In 1997, Britain passed a law requiring civilians to surrender almost all privately owned handguns to the police. More than 162,000 handguns and 1.5 million pounds of ammunition were “compulsorily surrendered” by February 1998. Using “records of firearms held on firearms certificates,” police accounted for all but fewer than eight of all legally owned handguns in England, Scotland, and Wales.[40]

          Not counting the above-listed anomalies, the homicide rate in England and Wales has averaged 52% higher since the outset of the 1968 gun control law and 15% higher since the outset of the 1997 handgun ban.[42]

        • Jack in Ga

          Look at Cheeto boy here. He doesn’t have any command of the facts regarding gun control. He doesn’t care that violent crime jumped in the UK after they banned guns..

          This guy probably thinks people who have guns are the problem and refuses to talk about the criminals that abuse the guns as the problem.

          Stalin and Hitler confiscated firearms (just like the Democrats want to).. Sometimes it’s good to look at the playbook used by “caring” democrats because it’s the same things facists and dictators do to keep their citizens under their jack boots..

          • The Weeping Cheeto

            Australia banned guns. It did not turn into a totalitarian state. Causation is not correlation. Countries that ban guns are much safer than this one. Every household in Iraq with a male can have an assault weapon. Why isn’t that the safest place in the world?

      • havadood

        Rapists. most murderers and drunk drivers do not commit mass murders. Knives don’t work for mass murderer. Wackos, angry men and losers with automatic weapons of mass destruction commit mass murders.

      • johnrf

        Do you remember when cars didn’t have seat belts. When they put out dirtier exhaust than they do now. When we made them safer and more efficient.
        What about Australiia?

  • William schrader

    idiot

  • zaxtervid

    It’s people like this that are pushing Gen Y and Millenials as far away from conservative politics as possible. Just saying …..

    • PhilKnox

      possibly, but there is wisdom in the old adage that “show me a young man who is not a liberal and I will show you a man with no heart. Show me an old man that is not a conservative, and I will show you an individual with no brain.”

      • zaxtervid

        People don’t change parties that much usually, and it would be in the GOP’s best interest to not let people like this be the face of their party. It’s not just that Gen Y and Millenials are young, it’s that their political leanings are being shaped by insensitive bastards like this guy, making them want nothing to do with republicans. You also can be socially liberal and fiscally conservative, which is most likely the future of the US.

        • PhilKnox

          Well they are being shaped by insensitive liberal bastards in college. I know I teach at one. When they grow up and realize that much of what they are taught is BS they will have that moment of epiphany.

        • PhilKnox

          sounds like libertarian

    • PhilKnox

      people tend to become conservative with age as they mature and wisdom takes hold

    • Jack in Ga

      So telling the Truth, stating that a tragedy in someone’s life doesn’t change the freedoms in the Constitution is a bad thing?

      If the truth hurts too much then libs need to toughen up.. Take off your little girl panties and grow up.. Truth works.. The Truth is that none of you libs talk about the mentally ill and what we should be doing to stop the “people” who abuse firearms the same way we stop “people” abuse other inanimate objects.. Drunk drivers abuse cars, they kill thousands every year..

      Where are you idiots when it comes to banning cars?

      It’s not the inanimate object..

      • zaxtervid

        The point is none of what you say above really matters because younger people don’t buy into that rhetoric at all. They’re too smart and don’t buy into the redneck guns and anti-abortion mentality. Doesn’t matter what your version of “truth” is. The “truth” is that the GOP will lose a generation of voters unless they change wthe face of the GOP>

  • dean53

    The greatest threat to a disarmed civilian population is their own government — not isolated cases of mentally ill wackos, however tragic that may be. The anti-gun crowd refuses to look at the historical global consequences of gun control. The governments of Nazi German, the Soviet Union, China, Uganda, Rwanda, Cambodia and other countries have all required gun control at times throughout the twentieth century. During this time these governments killed over 80 million of their own citizens.

    Those who fought in the War for American Independence understood the need for civilian self-defense, and they enshrined that right in the U. S. Constitution. Today right-wing Tea Party conservatives understand this better than others, as their own left-wing government violates the law by persecuting political opponents using government agencies such as the IRS. Even Martin Luther King supported the right to bear arms, and kept a small arsenal at his parsonage. He applied for but was denied a concealed carry permit by Alabama. Those Americans who believe their own government won’t someday turn on them are in denial.

    • dogfightwithdogma

      “The greatest threat to a disarmed civilian population is their own government — not isolated cases of mentally ill wackos, however tragic that is.”

      Perhaps so, though the examples you provided don’t speak really very well to the American experience. It is far less likely that our government will turn on us than was the case in the examples you provided. But I will concede it is not an impossibility. However, what fantasy scenario is playing out inside your head that leads you to conclude that in an armed conflict between the government and some part of the citizenry, the citizenry will prevail. Compare the weapons owned by Americans and those possessed by the government. Who wins in a conflict between these two armed agents? If your argument in defense of gun ownership is that we need to protect ourselves against our own government, then a challenge by any part of this armed citizenry is almost certainly doomed to failure given the overwhelming firepower of the government. Better to focus on preserving our democratic institutions and sentiments than to focus our attention on arming ourselves for a conflict that is only remotely possible and almost certainly a lost cause.

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  • PhilKnox

    I will agree with the liberals here that Joe’s comments were
    insensitive and impolitic at this particular time. However, Mr. Martinez chose to enter the
    political arena. He went beyond mere
    mourning. I also see a lot of unfounded
    attacks on the NRA, and misrepresentations of their positions, as well as other
    libelous comments. The NRA does not
    oppose restrictions on criminals, nor does it oppose restrictions against those
    deemed mentally deficient. Yet that is
    repeated many times here on this blog.

    There is already in existence a national instant background
    check. The NRA does oppose further restrictions
    on law abiding citizens. I have seen
    those here comment in favor of outright ban to having mandatory waiting
    periods, yet they are unable to answer how that would have affected this
    massacre or Sandy hook or Newtown.

    Liberals seem more interested in appearance than in
    substance. If a law would have done
    nothing to prevent these crimes, which are used as a means to justify new laws,
    why would any reasonable person support them?
    Those that advocate these laws are merely pandering to emotion, which is
    never a good reason to enact public policy.
    I see this trait among those on the left in other issues like
    healthcare. They give credit for the
    effort even if that effort makes little sense.

    • Jack

      The background checks don’t apply to private sales, so they are nearly useless. The law requires amendment, but the NRA opposes even this minimal common-sense measure.

    • willcommentforfood

      U R Full of C~RaP.

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  • http://rushlimbaughtomy.blogspot.com/ Barry Bozeman

    The awesome humanity and clear common sense of the Tea Party – NRA mindset shines through like a bright beacon of burning swamp gas carried on the winds of Limbaughtomized logic. Thank you Joe & Jules – you are the perfect voice for all that is RIGHT and twisted in America. Home of the child killers and land of the fearful free. Seems like everybody is out to get these poor gun lovers except greedy Wall Street financiers and fossil fuel barons. Small wonder they feel the need to carry weapons and “stand their ground”. Give them a break – a grieving father spoke ill of their guns They shouldn’t be made to suffer through that indignity. What was he thinking?
    Thankfully the NRA, Pat Robertson and Koch Brothers have their backs when they can afford he bullets. Take heart Joe & Jules – Ann Coulter loves you if nobody else does – or perhaps you would prefer the love of Glenn Beck? Just send another paycheck to the NRA and the Heartland Institute.
    Is Murdock really this hard up for copy? The New World Order, Climate Change Hoax, and the Socialist Obamacare Conspiracy are already dead? We should offer comfort to Jules and Joe – no one should have to suffer the stress of a father’s grief. Joe and Jules cannot let that grief go by unchallenged – they know how to stand their ground. I pity the fool who dares to grieve in earshot of the media – Joe and Jules will be all over it like stink on …… ah well enough praise for these poor MEN with guns.

    • PhilKnox

      You must have skipped your meds today. WOW, speaking of someone who should not own a firearm.^^^^^^

      • http://rushlimbaughtomy.blogspot.com/ Barry Bozeman

        Did you feel left out Phil? Sorry I didn’t recognize your affection for Joe and Jules earlier and for that you want to deny my Constitutional Rights?
        Too late – I’m armed to the tooth and clearly dangerous but unlike my friend Dr Gonzo I won’t be turning the weapon on myself. I will try to remember you in my next post so you won’t feel left out. So return to your grieving father bashing without fear. Stand your ground Phil – never let a little grief dissuade you from speaking out for your rights and against mine.

        • PhilKnox

          you are “armed to the tooth.” have you tried dentures?

          • http://rushlimbaughtomy.blogspot.com/ Barry Bozeman

            I have

          • PhilKnox

            good

            you need more poligrip

          • http://rushlimbaughtomy.blogspot.com/ Barry Bozeman

            Poligrip is over-rated and tastes terrible. Sea Bond strips are far better. Even shoulder fired automatics won’t knock Sea Bonded dentures loose.

    • Jack in Ga

      @Barry Bozeman:disqus – I’m glad you showed us your liberal colors.. You proved Joe’s point.. Just another liberal that doesn’t understand what a “freedom” is. Once again a mentally ill person who commits an atrocity and liberals refuse to address the problem.

      I hope this never happens again but if it does then Karma would certainly guide the mentally ill person to your doorstep so you can protect your family with platitudes and ignorance..

      • PhilKnox

        I will state unequivocally that Barry should not be allowed to own a firearm.

      • http://rushlimbaughtomy.blogspot.com/ Barry Bozeman

        I see Jack in GA feels left out as well. Sorry Jack – I wouldn’t want to offend another grief sufferer. I do understand your distress – why should you suffer through the grief of a father’s loss.
        All my “colors” must really be a source of discomfort for you Jack but the karma thing doesn’t work for you here. See the thing is that Karma reflects BACK on the individual wishing to see someone harmed. Not surprised that’s your first reaction but wishing someone attacked or dead isn’t exactly karma free.
        I am curious about those “platitudes” you seem to have found. Obviously my ‘freedom’ of thought is an anathema to you. The grieving father’s freedom to voice his grief and opinion seems to have disturbed you. Hey but if you don’t like it you can just shoot at it. If you felt threatened just fire away. Stand your ground, shoot first and don’t bother with the questions. That’s one way to go through life I guess.

        • Jack in Ga

          @barrybozeman:disqus – It takes a real special kind of sick (liberal mindset) to take the greatest set of freedoms in the greatest country in the world and try to turn it into some kind of Russian/Chinese socialist utopia..

          No Barry, Karma is you trying to take away the freedoms of Americans to protect themselves and their families and then a criminal taking advantage of your ignorance of the truth.

          Taking away guns isn’t the answer any more than banning cars is the answer to drunk drivers abusing cars and killing people..

          • http://rushlimbaughtomy.blogspot.com/ Barry Bozeman

            “taking away guns” Jack? Where do I say that?
            MY OBSERVATION was about your fear of gun control being so intense you need to attack a grieving father. Not one word concerns eliminating guns.
            Your hysterical over-reaction to his grief combined with paranoia is my point – thank you for confirming it.
            I QUOTE:: “Seems like everybody is out to get these poor gun lovers except greedy Wall Street financiers and fossil fuel barons. Small wonder they feel the need to carry weapons and “stand their ground”.” That’s called sarcasm Jack. There is no chance of even moderate gun control in the USA but you mind being robbed by Wall Street or threatened by CO2 – and a gun won’t stop those threats.
            You are so fearful someone wants to take your weapons you read it where it is not mentioned. For you – Joe and Jules – common decency, sympathy, and even good taste aren’t possible – you are threatened by the remarks of a grieving father. So “stand your ground” Jack – if it seems like a threat to your paranoid mind shoot first – your mouth or your gun

            I’m sorry for you jack – it must be terrible to live in fear of something as impossible as gun control in the USA. A man not FREE from FEAR has no FREEDOM – and a man who feels compelled to attack a grieving father has nothing worth taking.

          • havadood

            You nailed it Barry. When fear and ignorance meld as they do with these hysterical right wing, uneducated, ignorant gun nuts, this is what we get….a total lack of common decency, humanity, sympathy or as you say, even a modicum of good taste.

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  • Jack in Ga

    Thanks Joe.. I agree 100%..

    It’s despicable the way the left takes these tragedies and tries to take away my right to protect myself and my family..

    Maybe we should start making national calls to end the IRS? They illegally abused their power to attack political organizations that are in opposition to Obama and Democrats.. This was a Nixon impeachment charge..

  • Duel

    Let us hope that one day Mr. Joe the Plumber is not grieving the death of his children and if he does come to that day, he deserves as much.

    • PhilKnox

      I love that liberal compassion

  • Cameron Triplett Sr

    As hard as it may sound, “Joe the Plumber” is right. Everyone on here has a right to his or her own opinion, based on personal experience or preference. This is still the United States of America, & we are a nation of laws that (supposedly) apply to everyone equally. The Constitution guarantees American citizens the right to keep & bear arms (the Second Amendment) for a reason: the Founding Fathers knew first-hand how oppressive & overbearing a tyrannical gov’t could & WOULD be if the citizens had no recourse to protect their inalienable God-given rights, among them the rights to Liberty & protection.
    I am saddened every time I read of some disturbed individual misusing the right to keep & bear arms to vent his twisted hatred upon innocent, unsuspecting people. Take away all guns & what happens? You have someone driving a vehicle through a crowd (of children?), or throwing a Molotov cocktail or two into a crowded theater or nightclub, or loading up a truck w/fertilizer & gas, or flying an airplane or two into buildings full of unsuspecting people at work.
    Take away the right to keep & bear arms, & what’s next? Do you honestly think things will stop there? How long will it be before the right to peaceable assembly will become “wrong”? Does anybody on here care about the right to worship as we please, or not worship at all?
    Taking away any of our Constitutionally guaranteed rights will not solve anything, only make things worse. If someone doesn’t like any part of the Bill of Rights, no law says you MUST own guns, or go to Church, or assemble in peace, or anything else, but nobody has the right to take any rights away from everyone else just because some “nut” (& I apologize to pecans & other good nuts worldwide just so I don’t “offend” somebody looking for an excuse to be “offended”).
    There is a saying among those who do own firearms foe hunting, collecting, competitive shooting sports, & most of all, self defense: When guns are outlawed, only outlaws will have guns. That is true, but not in America’s best interest. Do you want a free country where the citizens are able to exercise their rights, or a country where the subjects do as they are told by the gov’t, like it or not?

    • havadood

      Have you read the Constitution? Have you read the 2nd Amendment? Have you read the cases interpreting the 2nd Amendment? The First Amendment guarantees the fundamental right to freedom of speech. However, in consideration of public safety (not to mention the “right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness”, the Supreme Court has often limited the right of free speech. For example, you can’t cry “fire” in a crowded theater. The people yelling the loudest about their 2nd Amendment constitutional rights are the most ignorant of those rights. even at the most extreme, no one is proposing outlawing guns. Stop. Listen. Hear. Read. Learn.

      • Cameron Triplett Sr

        Take your own advice! One of those idiot broads (women is too intelligent a term for Feinstein & her cohort) from CA said on tape that if she had the votes in Congress to outright ban all guns, Mr & Mrs America, turn them in NOW! Every unConstititional law restricting gun ownership is always touted as a “first (or next) “sensible step in banning gun ownership”.Read the Constitution? I have a copy in my desk to which I refer often. Do you? Yelling “FIRE!” in a crowded theater is an intentional act designed to create havoc & possibly cause grave injury & even death among others. Owning a gun is a right that a free may enjoy & exercise. Our press is charged w/the freedom of print, but they mostly choose to lick the boots of Liberal politicians rather than publish the truth, all the facts, & anything contrary to their political agenda. The press is becoming a propaganda dispenser.

        • havadood

          Mass murder is “an intentional act designed to create havoc & possibly cause grave injury & even death among others” . You gave me the EXACT definition to support stricter gun laws. Thank you. And, by the way, moron, as you trash Feinstein, keep in mind she has contributed more and accomplished more in her lifetime than you or your “cohorts” ever have or ever will. Save the sexist rants, buddy. They simply display your stunning ignorance. And yes, I have read the Constitution. I practice Constitutional Law. Any other questions you want answered? Try reading a book.

    • Jack

      Amongst the innumerable errors here, at least one town in the South, Kennesaw Georgia, requires gun ownership. They have had a spate of murders there in the last few years.

      • Cameron Triplett Sr

        & Chicago totally banned guns for years & is still known as the murder capital of the world, so your point is? Mine is that guns don’t kill, but people do. Ban the means by which people can defend themselves & watch the murder rate go sub-orbital. You wanna reduce the murder rate? Try getting to the ROOT of the problem: too few jobs; piss-poor education; irresponsible men impregnating irresponsible women; the list goes on, but the right of the people to defend themselves against maniacs who don’t bother to follow laws is NOT on that list.

        • Jack

          Chicago might be known as the murder capital of the world on right-wing radio, but according to the FBI statistics, Chicago metro area is not even in the top ten for US. Even if Chris were carrying, I don’t see how he could defend himself from a shot fired into a store from an SUV, which he never saw coming. But common-sense steps to keep guns from people who should not have them can prevent at least some of these tragedies. All industrialized democracies have the problems you’ve described, but we stand above them in our murder rate.

  • Duel

    What is wrong with giving all gun owners yearly psychological tests they themselves must pay for. This would have rooted out the crazies to some degree but the NRA is much against the insane being forbidden in obtaining guns. Yes, NRA, you and your following are the ones responsible here. We are in great demand of gun reform and we need major reform at the US Supreme Court on way or the other.

    • PhilKnox

      Try to pass that one before the ACLU they opposed the Kendra Law and have mot i more difficult to commit a mentally ill individual.

      • Duel

        No need to commit anyone, just have stronger measures to assure ex-cons and those deemed mentally deficient are not given gun access. Reasonable gun control will come to pass, one way or another.

  • Partial Coronary Occlusion

    Keep up the great work Joe.

  • Beuna Oates

    Where is the compassion? I do not see it in any in most comments. It is best to say nothing then point fingers or critcize others, look at yourself first, please.

  • PhilKnox

    I think most of you on the leftwing are really ignorant of
    the 20k plus gun laws that are already on the books. We already have a NATIONAL background check, through NICS. We severely restrict fully
    automatic weapons; they are labeled as Class 3 and require a thorough
    background check as well as a tax stamp from the BATFE.

    • Arthur Adams

      Rodger purchased his guns legally, but because of people like Joe-the-ex-plumbers-helper-now-auto-worker, we can’t even discuss that.

    • Jack

      No background checks for private sales, which creates an enormous problem, doesn’t it?

  • RabbleRabbleRabbleMe

    Phucking liberal trolls posting all your blather and confirmed idiocy in these comments — go eat a bullet. Please. Do the world a favor.

    • havadood

      Spoken like a classic ignorant angry right wing gun nut. Says it all. I rest my case.

  • Cameron Triplett Sr

    When I was an EMT, we called these types of over-reactions, where people wail & gnash their teeth & rend their clothing just to get attention away from the one who truly deserves attention, as having a DFO- Done Fell Out. While grieve for the parents who lost their children in this & other acts of violence that involved firearms or other means of murder, I cannot allow irresponsible words to go unanswered.

  • cecilia

    “Your dead kids don’t trump my Constitutional rights”

    wow, so as long as you get to cuddle your pen1s-substitute you don’t care WHO gets killed.

    what a swell guy!

    • PhilKnox

      you seem to have an obsession with the phallus. I noticed that this is a common trait among the left on this board.

      • cecilia

        no me….I have never owned a gun.

        and the responsible gun owners I DO know keep their guns locked up and safely away from insane people

        • PhilKnox

          so they keep them from you. that is a good thing

          • cecilia

            I’m not a violent person. There’s no danger from me. I also don’t say callous things to parents who have JUST lost their children to a wacko

          • PhilKnox

            perhaps, you just say callous things to everyone else, especially those that disagree with you.

          • cecilia

            pansy

          • PhilKnox

            You really are a sensitive individual.

          • cecilia

            yes, to people who have lost a child.

          • PhilKnox

            and screw everyone else. I will add that you are extremely emotional.

          • cecilia

            lol, I haven’t said ANYTHING emotional.

            I don’t think you are capable of understanding “emotion”.

            Why don’t you listen to the father that lost his son to that wacko…now THAT is emotional! and with good reason.

          • PhilKnox

            I love the irony on this one Cecilia, you may want to quit now. I will give a little parting advice to you. It is better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak and remove all doubt.

          • cecilia

            so you admit that you have no empathy for the parents who lost their children??

            I think it’s obvious you are the sociopath here.

          • PhilKnox

            Have you thought of a career in standup comedy? Just be yourself.

          • cecilia

            Comedy is very difficult. I’ll leave that to people who are talented that way.

            Anyway, I’ve already done quite well in my chosen career – won awards and so forth.

          • PhilKnox

            that is good because you wont be temped to change to a career in philosophy

          • cecilia

            a career in philosophy sounds terribly boring.

            I prefer science and art – the real world is quite fascinating.

        • PhilKnox

          People with a phallic obsession are probably not mentally competent to own a firearm.

          • cecilia

            so don’t own a gun
            problem solved

          • PhilKnox

            I am not the one that brought it up.

          • cecilia

            no, the one that “brought it up” was the non-plumber guy

  • Dan Zimbeck

    Well, let the dead kids be your kids, see what you say and feel. I’ll bet you will talk a different tune!
    This nation needs some progressive gun regulations done, and enacted.Your constitutional rights dose not give one the right to take life.

    • PhilKnox

      I am not a grammar nazi, I can make as many typos as the next guy, but your post needs subtitles.

    • p51dman

      Guns don’t kill people, People kill people. Last year there were more homicides due to bats and hammers, what regulations do you propose for those lethal weapons?

      • willcommentforfood

        They don’t need regulation because by the time someone uses a hammer, it’s enough reaction time to stop the killer, whereas with artillery, guns and semiautomatic guns at least multiple persons die before anyone has a chance to pull another glorified gun to stop them. None of your arguments stand up to data, except when you doctor them, fool. You and your cohorts are seriously idiotic.

        • p51dman

          So you are on a side that says I shouldn’t have the right to protect my family and myself against a person that is trying to harm us except for having a hammer? Trust me when I say, I am not a person that brings a hammer to a gun battle. You protect your family the way you want to, that is your right, just as I have every right to protect mine. I don’t infringe your rights, don’t infringe mine.

        • p51dman

          You are so right, multiple people dying without time to react, just like 22 school children in China when they were killed with a knife. You protect your family with a piece of paper that says something like, “you can’t do that,it against the law” and I will not infringe on you, I will protect mine with a firearm and I ask you not to infringe on me. As far as arguments, these are facts from the good ol’ FBI web site. If a person takes a few minutes and research before posting inaccuracies and they won’t look foolish.

      • Dan Zimbeck

        to top51dman:
        actually you made me point in that if people can’t control themselves in how guns are utilized, then we need to do something about it, and any violent act using items as a that kind of tool for the purpose of a violent act.People unfortunately have taken our freedoms to the ext-ream placing an undo burden on our government to act.The problem is not government regulations, its people.

        • p51dman

          Dan, I am 100% convinced that there is a severe loss of the value of life from a family raising prospective. To many times I read these tragic incidents and I find a broken home, dual income to keep up with the neighbors, and so on as a common denominator. If the shooter were to have lost a family member, would he have the heartbreak that Mr. Martinez has? I would wager not. Blaming guns is not the answer. Making responsible people endure a hardship isn’t an answer either. This may sound very cold and callous, but in the vast majority of these situations, I hold the parents responsible. Not the government, not the NRA, or the left or the right. The parents have a responsibility to instill values, morals and ethics in their children, and it is clearly evident to me, it’s not being done.

          • Dan Zimbeck

            P51dman;
            I actually in part fundamentally agree with your last writing, How ever, I do believe parents indeed have failed, but I also think there is something ,more then ineffective parenting at work here that is not bring recognized, I think oewrhaps it may have to do with inability do effectively deal with emotional anger of sorts, that erupts in forms social behavior.Sometimes more often than not where there is a dual income, its not to keep up with neighbors, but to try to keep up with life’s demands.

          • p51dman

            Dan, So coming back to the part of your comment that prompted my initial response regarding your sentiment for gun regulation. If together, we have identified issues that lead up to tragedies such as Mr. Martinez has to endure. Long before any mention of a firearm, then my question is, isn’t it more reasonable to remedy the problem, (loss of values, social media behavior, ect.) long before a firearm is brought into the equation that is used in tragedies, versus a firestorm of angry sentiment towards a tool that some of us choose to use to protect our families with?

  • RabbleRabbleRabbleMe

    Joe is EXACTLY right. Not one thing about this or any other mass shooting, ALL CARRIED OUT BY LIBERALS, BTW, take any kind of precedence over MY RIGHTS! Thank you Joe for putting up and stating the exact same thing I was yelling at this idiot Martinez when I heard his whining and liberal blame-gaming on TV the other day. If he wants someone to blame, he should blame the liberal parents who didn’t raise their genetic misfire of a son to be a decent, compassionate, well adjusted individual. Instead, they just threw money at him, gave him everything he wanted (including a PRIVATE birthday bash with Katy Perry hired as entertainment) and ignored him as a REAL person and his problems. Instead, they wanted to be liberal parents who are friends with their kids before they’re parents — wanted to be the cool parents, the parents who treated their children as equals …. when we all know kids are not the equals of adults until they become adults….. but raise them like this (or actually NOT raising them) and this what you end up with. A closeted homosexual misogynist coward who murders innocents. And PS — he would have done this whether there were gun control laws or not. He was an animal with intent. So flame away with your hate-filled and simple minded liberal rhetoric. I don’t revisit posts and I don’t respond to idiot commenters who think they know me enough to criticize THE TRUTH and FACTS that I state. If you don’t agree with me, then you’re of no significance to me in any way, shape, form or fashion.

    • Rob Knaggs

      Well, you’re a peach, aren’t you?

      “ALL CARRIED OUT BY LIBERALS, BTW”
      Well, yes, if your definition of “liberal” is “someone who carries out a mass shooting”.

      “Not one thing about this or any other mass shooting [...] take any kind of precedence over MY RIGHTS!”
      Ah, so this is all about you. Glad we were able to clear that up. Out of interest, do this or any other mass shooting take precedence over the Isla Vista victims’ right to life?

      “Thank you Joe for putting up and stating the exact same thing I was
      yelling at this idiot Martinez when I heard his whining and liberal
      blame-gaming on TV the other day.”
      Didn’t stop to consider the impact that his kid just having been shot to death might have had on his words, then, eh?

      “So flame away with your hate-filled and simple minded liberal rhetoric.”
      Projecting much?

      “I don’t revisit posts and I don’t respond to idiot commenters who think
      they know me enough to criticize THE TRUTH and FACTS that I state.”
      I don’t need to know you to criticize the content of your internet post, which actually consists not of truth or facts but invective and hate-filled speculation.

      And if you’re one of those drive-bys who don’t revisit posts or respond to “idiot commenters”, presumably you don’t have any interest in mellowing the portrayal you’ve constructed of yourself on here, which is that of a total idiot.

      ” If you don’t agree with me, then you’re of no significance to me in any way, shape, form or fashion.”
      Did they invent a special grade “E” for “egomaniac” when you took forensics in high school?

  • drblues01

    Re discussion of sociopaths, Schadenfraude, attacks on the father of a dead child, etc.:

    There are kids in junior high school who think that hurting people makes them cool and powerful. They are either unwilling or unable to relate to the pain of others. At times they enjoy it. Some of those bullies never grow up, they just move on to posting messages (see Rabble…, Jules, etc., hiding behind anonymity) and somewhere, consciously or unconsciouly, get off on the sense of power over life and death that guns convey, usually making up for internal feelings of powerlessness. It is essentially a deadly form of mooning. The only question for decent folks is how we survive these morons.

    • cecilia

      well, silly people on the Internet aren’t harmful to me personally, but what I want to know is: WHY is it so easy for mentally ill people to have access to guns??

      This kid was in therapy since he was 9 years old (from what I read)…..why was he able to get guns?

      That’s the real issue here. I don’t have a problem with responsible gun owners. I knew a few myself. I have never even SEEN their guns. They keep them locked up. They don’t wave them around to “prove” their manliness.

      • drblues01

        There is an excellent article in todays New York Times called “Why doctors can’t identify killers,” by a psychiatrist, Richard Friedman. You could Google it. Basically, millions of people have psychological problems, and millions of people, including kids, see therapists. Hindsight is always 20-20. Besides, therapy doesn’t always resolve issues of isolation and anger, and if we locked up everyone like that, we’d have millions more in essentially prisons (and angrier when they got out).

        Alcohoi and drug addiction are correlated much higher than mental illness in regard to violence. And most important, only .15 of 1 percent of homicides are of the mass murder type (4 or more people). The best thing we can do is make it much harder for anyone with any kind of issue to get guns. In my opinion, the onus should be on the prospective gun owner to prove that he is sane and peaceful, and will not give away or sell his gun to the highest bidder.

        • cecilia

          agreed.
          We need training is driving a car and a test for a drivers licence…….why not for a gun?

          • angelsinca

            Training is already required for license renewal in most states. It only helps people how to use the safety and shoot straight.

  • Mr Neutron

    What a complete d-bag, the king of asshattery. Joe the Plumber = Joe the moron.

    • p51dman

      I am curious, when you need to protect yourself or your loved ones, after the ranting of someone that has experienced the same tragedy incurred by a drunk driver, or work place accident or any other horrible event has been successful in taking your means for protection away, what are you going to do?

      • Cynthia Reagan

        Do you want a response? On the off chance you do, here goes:
        1. No guns in the house.
        2. If you want to avoid robberies, GET A DOG.
        3. Don’t text or talk on the cellphone or drink and drive, and watch out for other asshats who do.
        4. Stay out of 15-pasenger vans.
        5. Generally be aware of safety.
        How’s that for starters? And it didn’t involve contributing to the problem by obtaining a firearm. Will that guarantee that a piano won’t fall on you from a building? No. But it is a reasonable way to live without being part of the problem.

        • p51dman

          I like that, “No guns in the house”,
          1.That does a tremendous amount of good for protecting your family against someone that does have a firearm and is seeking to do harm to you.
          2.I would think the best way to avoid being robbed, is give ALL your stuff, your money, everything you have worked for away, then no one will have a desire to bother you. A dog will only alert you to someone coming unless trained
          3. I really like this one because it provides much protection to ALL the innocents from drunk drivers, they should have had their eyes open
          4. Statistically there are more accidents with sub-compacts than vans.
          5. In my career, I have seen to many widows because of being “generally aware” instead of proactive to prevent tragedy.
          MOST IMPORTANT, I would rather be able to protect my family and not need to, than need to and have some politician strip me of my ability to. So the question I present to you is, “How far are you truly willing to go to protect yourself or loved one”?

          • Cynthia Reagan

            I think this gets to the root of the problem: The vast majority of us are somewhat worried about people like you who think you need to collect handguns to “protect your family against others.” I’ve raised four kids who are now grown, and I never shivered in paranoid fear that some fiend was coming to get me in my home. The people I worry about are those who have this paranoid fear that makes them fear their neighbors, arm themselves to the teeth, and who, from time to time, go on killing sprees.

          • p51dman

            I am glad you have had a secure life. We have had two significant events that made us aware that we need to be proactive, the first was when we walked in on burglary, the second was when my wife was traveling alone, if it was not for a very fast car, she at a minimum would have been the victim of a car jacking that easily could have escalated to something much worse. My wife took a firearm safety course from a FBI instructor and now carries a firearm when she travels.
            The people I worry about are those that jump conclusions and cause more harm than good. Guns are no more evil than clubs,(used by Cain to kill Able), people can be evil, and I choose to be in a position to be able to protect myself and my family. I sincerely pray, you nor anyone in your family ever suffers from the efforts of anyone trying to do you harm as it sounds like you are completely reliant on someone else for your protection. I noticed you did not answer my last question, so I will ask again, “How far are you truly willing to go to protect yourself or loved one”?

  • Bob Quinn

    Have you ever heard Joe speak? If you believe he wrote this I have some land in the Everglades I want to sell you. Oh, and a bridge in Brooklyn too.

    • PhilKnox

      He must be better than Joe Biden.

      • Bob Quinn

        So you’re saying Joe the Plumber is smarter and a better choice for VP or President than Joe Biden?? LOL. Beneath that easy going exterior he is one savvy dude.

    • The Weeping Cheeto

      Probably written by the NRA who then paid “Joe” to put his name on it. Kind of like Bill O’Reilly books.

      • PhilKnox

        i am betting he can hold a thought when his teleprompter goes out.

        • The Weeping Cheeto

          I doubt it. Just like Dubya. Maybe he writes it on his hand like Caribou Barbie?

          • PhilKnox

            I was thinking of Obama. The man is lost without his teleprompter.

          • The Weeping Cheeto

            If Biden is such an idiot, how was he able to slap Lyin’ Ryan around like an intellectual rag doll?

          • PhilKnox

            I am no Ryan or Romney fan, but I will say that I hope that thought helps you sleep at night. Biden is intellectually vacuous. If you look up the phrase empty suit it has a picture of Biden.

          • willcommentforfood

            Phil, you’re just making a fool of yourself. Attacking O. and B. for low intelligence is like attacking Mickey Mantle or Babe Ruth for being a bad home run hitter. It is so dumb it’s stunning and undermines your attempt at a point, and shows how stupid and empty your side of the aisle is. O. is as spontaneously smart as they come, and you know it. So is Biden. Your inability to score a point is amusing.

  • Jack in Ga

    Here is what the Democrats and liberals want to happen in the US, this story is from the UK:

    A householder is attacked by a violent burglar every 30 minutes. . . According to the BCS, householders came face-to-face with burglars in 20 per cent of domestic burglaries last year. . . Of the burglaries in which the victim came face-to-face with the intruder, violence was either used or threatened in 59 per cent of crimes. . . It was actually used in 40 per cent of cases. . . Tories estimated that householders came face-to-face with burglars in 57,000 – 20 per cent – of burglaries. . . Of these, 23,000 resulted in the burglar using violence against the householder.

    • Rob Knaggs

      Which proves what, exactly?

      • Arthur Adams

        That @jackinga:disqus can copy-paste statistics with the best of them!

    • Jack

      And in the US, a person is shot about every six minutes.

  • Barbara Mathews

    JoeforAmerica? Joe is not for America…Joe is for keeping Joe in the news.

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  • James Matters

    I read down about 30 posts. Didn’t see a single argument about what was said in the open letter. Just a bunch of personal attacks. None of those refute anything the author had to say. Sad that comments can’t be more civilized, respecting the motives and positions of others, as Joe was.

    And don’t bother flaming me, I’ll not respond.

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  • Cynthia Reagan

    To Mr. Wurzelbacher: You sir are an unfunny t-shirt that went out of style about 2 minutes after it was made. I appreciate your sad struggle to keep your name out there, but you are more a cautionary tale than a meaningful point of view. And your screed posted above is a pretty good encapsulation of what I am referring to.

    To readers: I humbly submit that Mr. Wurzelbacher’s cartoon opinion is thankfully not the majority opinion in this great country of ours. He is a shill for other interests that purport to be “regular folks” but who in fact make a tidy sum from an $11 billion dollar a year industry that has brought unfathomable heartache to millions.

    On the other hand, if you happen to agree with this fraud who still refers to himself as “The Plumber,” by all means carry on.

    • PhilKnox

      I take it you are an expert on clothing that is out of style.

      • Arthur Adams

        The intellectual depth of your rebuttals astounds me. Trying to get a right wing talk radio hosting job?

  • havadood

    “your dead kids don’t trump my Constitutional rights”.

    What a mean-spirited, evil, ignorant loser. Obviously, this moron hasn’t even read the Constitution. That’s the problem. Try reading just the Preamble, Joe. Not too many big words. even you can handle it.

    NOT ONE MORE, Joe. And that includes your kids.

    • Arthur Adams

      Obviously, this moron hasn’t even read the Constitution.

      I doubt he ever read this article before whatever gun nut group gave him the check for the use of his name. He’d probably sign onto Swift’s Modest Proposal if offered enough cash.

      • havadood

        AMEN!

    • DEConserv

      So what your saying if guns were totally outlawed this would not have happened….if your answer is yes then how do you explain the ones killed by knife? Always jumping to attack guns….Drugs are illegal yet they are easy to get…outlaw guns how hard do you think they will be to get???? Please answer don’t deflect the questions.

      • havadood

        No, that is not what I am saying. Point out where I said that. You can’t, because it’s only your propaganda riddled pro-gun knee jerk mind mindless parroting of the NRA that makes you read things that aren’t there. You can’t commit a mass murder with a knife. Plain and simple. No one is calling for outlawing guns. I haven’t read that position in a single post on these pages And yet, over and over, that is what you and your NRA zombies read when folks call, no beg, for stricter gun laws, Settle down. Think. Read. Listen. Hear.

        • DEConserv

          Stop deflecting…how would a background check, that he had, have helped here? If that is not the issue than what is…its not banning guns as you said. I am confused what is it…there is not another option. And you are talking about yourself when you say knee jerk reaction. I have already clearly stated I am for expanded back ground and some way to check for mental health issues so what is knee jerk? Honoring the second amendment? Pointing out its not guns its mental health issues? You can get guns even if you don’t pass a background check? You need to think Read and Listen to those that know better.

          • havadood

            Respectfully, you do not “know better”. Such astounding arrogance is part of the problem. it’s great that you support expanded background checks and a method to identify mental health issues and gun ownership. That’s all we’re asking for…. so, bravo. Lanza’s mother well knew his pathology and sociopathy and yet bought him guns “to enhance his self esteem” Yikes! Other families of mass shooters report knowing that their mass shooter family members were deeply disturbed, angry, isolated and depressed and, astoundingly, report that they also knew that guns were at their disposal but never worried about that fact until it was too late. Yikes! As we speak, there are families dealing with disturbed, depressed, angry, isolated spouses or parents or children and their houses are full of guns. This is going to happen again, and again and again. We need to change the way we think about and talk about gun ownership and mental illness. We need to connect the dots. We need to honor the innocent dead….the babies, the adolescents, the women, the college kids. And the way to do that is to stop waiving rifles in the air at NRA conventions and conservative political gatherings and come up with solutions that provide our loved ones with the ability to enjoy life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. That’s what drove the Founders and underlies our Constitution and not a narrow reading of the 2nd Amendment as the NRA and rabid gun rights advocates would have us believe. Education. Intelligent debate. Common sense. Common decency. Humanity. That’s what we need

          • DEConserv

            Well that is very compassionate and sounds lovely but that answered none of the questions nor did it offer any way to help with this situation or future ones? If the NrA stops waiving rifles what will that help?

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  • sirald66

    Vile person.

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  • http://www.yahoo.com SGT USARMY 20012

    This coming from the guy who RECEIVED welfare before he was against it.

    The 2nd Amendment is a man-made law that was set when firing a bullet was slightly faster than throwing one.

    Arms are going to be regulated; end of story.
    Use the “Protect my family” excuse all you want, gun-weirdos.
    Regulation of bullets and arms is here to stay.

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  • darknessN2light

    Hey Wurzelbacher!!! Have a seat!!! Everybody has seen you and you still got nothing to say…

  • foolproof

    Well then what legal guns protected these kids? That’s right, the cops guns. Where were all you law abiding gun toting citizens? Shooting kids in your garage in Missoula?

    • angelsinca

      “Shooting kids in your garage…”

      Despicable statement. The law abiding citizens didn’t carry their weapons into the ‘Gun Free’ zone, so people died waiting for the official armed response.

    • DEConserv

      Your wrong he killed himself…get your facts before making yourself out to be a fool.

  • DEConserv

    Again a tragedy that no one could understand unless it happened to them. Lashing out at guns won’t bring their children back. Interesting I haven’t heard anyone lash out at knife manufacturers for the first 3 deaths?? Can one of you help me there?? Don’t you think this kid would have used the knife for the rest of the killings or the car for that matter to run them down? Its not the gun its the inability to deal with the mental illness. That should be our focus. And answer this please…if we take all guns away from law abiding citizens does that mean criminals won’t have them?….I think we know the answer to that…criminals and cops would be the only ones with guns. We need to stop putting their names in lights..they do it to become famous in death so others who feel disenfranchised by the world see the fame they gain from the murders and it drives them to do outrageous and horrible things. No more name posting by the media would help I believe.

    • Jack

      Actually, I don’t think he would have been able to throw his knife from his SUV and into a store. Since no one wants to take guns away from all law-abiding citizens, there is really no reason to answer that question. Why are you against universal background checks for gun purchases?

      • DEConserv

        Oh your saying he couldn’t have used a knife by walking into the store or the car couldn’t pass through a window??? You get my point yet you deflect like a good liberal:) He got this gun legally with a back ground check in a very difficult state, CA right? Who said I wasn’t for universal background checks.?? I would expand that to somehow include mental health checks if it was constitutional. All of these mass shooters had mental health issues there has to be a way to address that legally. I am all for it to try to stem this problem.

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  • tim1964

    I think what has occured here is tragic. When we should be addressing the blatantly obvious issue of our woefully inadequate mental health system, I see people instead focusing on scoring political points for their side of the gun control debate.

    • Ashlynn Mitchell

      So allow Obamacare to pass to allow access to mental health to all Americans

      • tim1964

        so since Obamcare is now the law and has passed, as you advised me 3 months ago, has treatment for mental illness improved?

  • Justin C.

    Lets see the facts…

    Show me how GUN CONTROL works ???

    1:the guy killed the 1st 3 with a knife
    2:the guy used a California Approve Safe Gun found on the Safe Gun Roster
    3:The guy used California Limited Capacity 10rd Magazines
    4:He Shot all these people in a GUN FREE ZONE
    5:This happend in CALIFORNIA; one of thee leading state for GUN CONTROL.

    • Ashlynn Mitchell

      1996 a gunman in Australia killed 36 people the government of the time the equivalent of our Republican party passed gun control laws in response to the killings.
      Since then there have been ZERO mass killings in Australia since then in America over the same period of time 250+ people have died as a result of mass killings not to mention the day to day loss of life to gun violence

  • Jack

    How’s he going to protect his family from a crazy guy with a gun shooting from a car into a store? What do his rights have to do with the right of the state to protect its citizens by common-sense measures like background checks?

  • Ted Esparza

    You also realize groups like NRA and etc. exploit these tragedies just as much right? The amount of money gun companies make every time a mass shooting goes up quite a bit I would think. I am not in favor of restricting access to guns for sane people just people who might do these things. That means we need to take mental health seriously in this country which we do not what so ever. We weaken ourselves further as a society the more we put off taking caring of each other.

  • John Norman

    I agree with Wurzelbacher! Our country has gun rights written into the constitution. The only thing that can change this is an ammendment to change the constitution. If average Americans don’t like the status quo then perhaps we need an ammendment. Those who don’t like this country as it is with gun rights written into the constitution should perhaps move to a country where citizens are not allowed to have guns.

  • qcubed63

    There really is only ONE way to deal with people like you, Joe. I sincerely hope that someone with mental issues finds your family members, or better..YOU…and forces you to change your tune with an experience similar to that which you deride through your ridiculous letter.

  • qcubed63

    I never realized how highly contagious the Palin gene was.

  • qcubed63

    This letter is proof positive that your first amendment right doesn’t guarantee thought.

  • qcubed63

    They don’t care about your family or your dead children at all. They sound like they do, whereas I sound uncaring and like I say, harsh. Don’t be fooled – I care about your family and mine. The future of our very liberty lies in the balance of this fight.
    Translation: “if ONLY everyone owned gunz, and lots of gunz, this sort of thing wouldn’t happen, and your kids would still be alive. So, PLEASE blame all the people grabbing at your gunz…ie;Liberals.”

    This is your brain…this is your brain on Joe….

  • James

    Well said Joe!

    • qcubed63

      Yup…lives mean nothing, only money and a two centuries old misinterpreted paragraph.

      • James

        I guess if you want to demagogue the situation…good job troll! we all thank you for your tolerance and understanding

        • qcubed63

          It’s not trolling when it is true. One side…yours it appears, only cares about profits and a vaguely interpreted ‘right’. Good thing there wasn’t an amendment for the ‘right’ to own slaves or the ‘right’ to beat women.

        • qcubed63

          It’s also frightening that you admire someone who believes it is more important to be allowed to own weapons of mass murder than it is to live a peaceable life.

  • qcubed63

    even in the face of this horrible incident by this sad and insane individual. I almost said “Obama Voter” but I’m waiting for it to be official.

    Stay classless, Joey.

  • qcubed63

    Joe, someday you, or your kids, will get to experience this first hand. Do not expect sympathy from real Americans.

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  • Lownote

    Hey Joe got a question for you. Ya know that place where your soul is supposed to be… is yours filled with human excrement or dog excrement?

    Never mind… I think we all know.

  • josh

    I survived a legal gun owners cowardice attempts to end my life. I am a very proud bullet survivor. Where are my rights? like my right to gather. my right to change the government? my right to ask for a small increase in federal taxes to handle the hospital bills of survivors. they are alive and well. there are sensible solutions. gun bans create jobs in the underground economy. lets have a small increase in federal taxes with a large deduction people who don’t happen to currently own a gun? lets have a massive federal tax return for the survivors and take care of the people at least financially who are trying to survive. I can speak from personal experience that the financial problems compounded the main issue of getting shot, and while I was a kid, it was easy to understand how my hospital trips and surgery left my family so hurting for money at the time. we have insurance requirements on cars, license requirements and taxes, lets regulate guns more like cars or marijuana?

  • TI-122

    Thank you SO MUCH, you creepy, extreme-right wingnut for FURTHER proving what every thinking conservative is begining to realize: You are reckless, un-thinking, and dangerous. You are not conservative—I am conservative. And I know the difference. What YOU are is extreme, hateful, and reckless. You’re on the fringes of our society, not at its heart.

  • Daniel Liebeskind

    You’re wrong, Joe. Your 2nd amendment rights don’t trump the rights to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness that were brutally taken from those kids. So stop pretending that the 2nd amendment is all or nothing and join in an honest debate about how sane, non-violent people like you can exercise the right to bear arms while regulating that right strongly enough so that people with a history of violence and the mentally unstable cannot get easy access to guns.

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  • DrCaligari

    Mr Mangel-Wurzel, you truly are a horrible excuse for a human being. I resent your breathing my atmosphere. Stop.

  • Turkeyherder

    Would gun control have stopped the 3 stabbing victims from being murdered?

    • Tim Martinez

      What is the percentage of murders committed by stabbing? Look it up then reconsider your comment.

      • Turkeyherder

        So those 3 stabbing victims would have been saved by gun control?

        • Tim Martinez

          The question was directed to GUN CONTROL in regards to the percentage of death due to GUNS. A GUN is not a knife. I am surprised you didn’t know that!

          • Turkeyherder

            I asked my question first and no one has actually answered the question. Why should I answer yours?

    • rowdyjames

      Your question ranks with “Who’s on first?”

      • Turkeyherder

        Of course you would imply that the question is irrelevant. You know that gun control would not have saved the first 3 victims of this killer.

  • bobbobitybob

    Actually, dead kids do trump Joe’s constitutional rights, since the primary point of all rights is to ensure security of the person. When you’re dead, everything else is irrelevant. Being dead is the ultimate lack of freedom. That’s why, if you kill someone, they take away your rights and pop you in jail, or perhaps even kill you. The victim’s right to stay alive just trumped any right you have.

    Joe’s argument is that having a gun is the best means to ensuring the right to stay alive. There is a lot of unspoken subtext about going to war with government and all that, but his explicit argument is that ‘as a father himself’ he has a big old histrionic right to protect his children.

    And so, it just breaks down into an argument about whether guns offer more threat, than safety. Pretty hard to say what the right answer is, but it’s definitely not “Shut up, the whole argument is an attack on my rights!”

    Joe is a bit too dim, and self-righteous, and reflexive to frame his actual argument with any clarity. He wanders off into bitter dog-whistling about whether killers are all libbies just because he can’t help himself, and of course drags the red herring about “Pillows smother people … so ban pillows!” across his confused polemical trail. But basically it’s just the same old argument about how to best ensure personal safety, where he chooses a grotesquely inappropriate time to promote himself and attempt to declare the entire argument ‘unconstitutional’.

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  • lexi001

    What an ignorant, vile man.

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  • Jack

    What DC law bans the possession of guns in one’s own home?

  • http://far-sited.com Greenmoon

    Stupid lives here.

    • CorruptionIsGoodInPhilly

      At your house?

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  • Barbara

    “I am sorry you lost your child. I myself have a son and daughter and the one thing I never want to go through, is what you are going through now. But:”
    Apparently he doesn’t know that any statement followed with “but” negates the original statement. Apparently, he IS NOT sorry you lost your child.

  • Cynthia Reagan

    Another ex-person saddened by her fame slipping away, Exene Cervenka of the 80′s band X, has publicly claimed that the shootings didn’t actually happen; that it was a hoax. How very similar. Different approaches, but the same desperate plea to be remembered.

    By the way, you want an answer to Mr. Wurlitzer’s rant, as opposed to an attack? Here goes:

    I’m sure there are people who think it’s their God-given right to freely possess explosives, too. But the more rational among us know that is not good for society. Unfortunately, the same is true for unfettered access to handguns.

    • CorruptionIsGoodInPhilly

      Possessing explosives is against the law whereas the “right” to possess firearms is in the Constitution of the United States.

      • Cynthia Reagan

        Good point. 1. How do you feel about a rifle with a grenade launcher attached? 2nd Amendment protected, or no? 2. Do you agree that, other than language in the 2nd Amendment there are no good arguments to the possession of handguns?

        • CorruptionIsGoodInPhilly

          Again… Grenade Launchers are against the Law. So, you would send the Police into dangerous situations without the benefit of a Handgun? Whether or not you agree, they are a legal “heavily regulated” product and our Founding Fathers determined on December 15, 1791 that this was a good idea and it stands that way today.

          And lest we forget, it was not the gun that did the damage – It was a deranged person who had been treated for mental illness for over 10 years. You want to blame someone – Look no farther than the Parents and the Therapist.

          • Cynthia Reagan

            My questions: 1. In your humble opinion, iIs a rifle with a grenade launcher attached a 2nd Amendment protected item, or not? 2. Do you believe handgun possession is ONLY justified under the 2nd Amendment, or do you believe handgun possession should be protected anyway, regardless of the 2nd Amendment?

            These are important questions.

  • Dave

    His statement was, as he said, harsh….but also true.

    • Trey Huffelpuff

      And completely asinine. Why does he even need to say it?

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  • GMA213

    The truth often hurts and Joe is correct.

  • doitinprivate

    As “Let me tell you another thing I know about the Negro…” is to racial issues, “Your dead kids…” is to gun issues

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  • JollyLo

    His real name isn’t even, Joe, so why should I listen to him?

  • FAKIA

    I like this letter. Unlike most of the discourse on this issue, I’d be surprised if it didnt reflect his actual feelings. Honesty in political speech though? Naaah. It’llnever catch on.

  • Dante Laboy

    Plenty have responded to a tragic situation by advocating changing, enforcing, or creating laws….Megan’s law comes to mind, and there have been laws and policy created in response to incidents such as drunk driving deaths. Besides, who here is suggesting that guns become outlawed? Oh yea, because you and “Joe” are delusional sociopaths that create strawmans in order to justify attacking parents of murder victims.

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  • Lance Phillips

    We need to question what Joe means by “restriction of rights.” For example, when I have to go through airport security and be inconvenienced, and even prevented from carrying liquids in my carryon luggage, is that a restriction of my rights? Or isn’t it a necessary inconvenience to ensure everyone’s safe travel. Does going through mandatory airport security and following their regulations mean that my right to travel has been taken away from me? Resoundingly “no.” I retain the right to travel, with a speed bump added. So gun control doesn’t mean we are taking away your guns; it means we are going through background checks to ensure a mentally ill person or violent person (on record) does not get a ready access to guns. Is it foolproof? Not completely, but if it is, to any degree, a deterrent, then it is worth it because it can save lives. The NRA, and those who buy their spewing and ranting about losing their rights via gun control, are promulgating paranoic fears but without offering a solid, existing, evidential basis for it, just a fear that it could happen. But to inveigh against losing those rights is not appropos to the purpose and proposal of gun control. That they are on guard against the loss of those rights–and give a general warning against such loss–is understandable and meaningful. But not in this context, yet they would want you to think so. Why? Because they’re afraid of paying extra costs to buy their guns? Because of a little extra waiting time to get their guns? Because the NRA leaders want to appear like they are the saviors of their memberships’ guns, or create a contrived reason for solidarity and opposition among its members in order to retain their interest and membership [see, I can dream up reasons like the NRA leaders, but at least I recognize them as possibilities and not actual events until proven so strongly enough]? Or because they THINK the next step from gun control will be the confiscation of their guns? I see no evidence that the latter is true or assured, or can’t be fought against if it takes place. Meanwhile, gun control makes sense and is worth doing to save the lives of our fellow citizens, especially our most innocent and vulnerable, our children.

  • Ashlynn Mitchell

    So what if someone used their constitutional rights to bear arms and as a result your son and daughter died Sameul?
    What will be your stance then Samuel “Oh well they are just sacrifices to the 2nd amendment?”

    • richblade

      This statement makes no sense. If someone uses their constitutional right to protect themselves from Samuel’s son or daughter, who cares what Samuel thinks. The constitution allowed a person to protect their right to life. Seeing that we are creating hyperboles, what if Mr. Martinez’ child had a gun and killed Mr. Rodgers in a constitutional act of self defense, maybe saving the lives of all of the victims, would the anti-2nd amendment people still waste their time on this message board?

  • Mike P

    It’s a truly sad circumstance when a life is lost. It doesn’t matter the cause. However, it should not be forgotten that this person was mentally ill. His family knew it, people who knew him realized this as well. This was not just gun violence. It ran the gamut from knives to guns to cars. We must start placing blame where it belongs. On the individual, not on a piece of equipment. We don’t blame Ginsu, and we don’t blame Mercedes… we blame the wielder and the driver.
    My heart truly goes out to the father. I lost my own son last July, and my mother three weeks ago. He and his family will be in my thoughts and prayers.

  • John Dough

    “As harsh as this sounds – your dead kids don’t trump my Constitutional rights.”

    Translation:
    I’m callous. Your murdered children matter less to me than maintaining my privilege as a (paranoid/insane) white man (and being a pawn of Capital).

  • Trey Huffelpuff

    For someone that has so much sympathy, which you repeated over an over, you sure know how to show compassion when using a phrase like “dead kids”. The fact you feel the need to be harsh, or speak at all about this, is egocentric and disgusting to be frank. You will tout your rights to free speech, but just because you can speak doesn’t mean you should. If you truly care you would shut your mouth.
    How are you helping this problem? By denying their is a problem? This father is calling for action-to end these senseless killings that are becoming so common we are becoming desensitized to them. Something is very wrong here. Change is needed. Simply holding up a document written over 250 years ago is not a solution.
    You note the component of mental illness here, and how he is able to “exact this kind of pain”. He was treated. People knew he was ill. He was able to do this because of how easy it was to get a gun. It feels very wrong to me that this kid can acquire a gun legally but cannot buy alcohol. Keep your guns. No one wants to take away your guns. Lets just make it much harder to get one.

  • Jeffrey Housman

    Disarm the good people and only the bad people will have guns and then crime will increase. This is how it is in NYC and then they say on the stop and frisk that we are racist. If the crime is in a predominately white or Spanish or African American area then we are racist when we stop those people. If the area is crime central then you have to stop anyone in that area and now the cops are racist. Unbelievable?????

  • Me

    please explain what a “weapon” is??? car? knife? bicycle? plastic bag?

    • Guest

      I’m certain you understood exactly what I said. It needs no further discussion. Same game… same deflection.

  • Robert Sexton

    The only issue I have with this article is the fact that Joe refers to Rodger as a “psycho”. To me a “psycho” would be someone who is so far gone that they really don’t know what they’re doing. While Rodger did have a mental ailment, he was far from diminished in his capacity to make a decision. Rodger chose to kill. Period. If he had not turned his gun on himself, he would be incarcerated and facing the same system of justice anyone else would. To the parents of those lost: There is only one person to blame for this: Rodger.

  • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1053961240 Richard DiscoPup Dupler

    “We’re coming to take your guns away,” said no one in the U.S. Government. Ever.

  • richb5200

    Your 15 minutes of fame are over, “Joe the douchebag”. Wacko commentaries are your only claim to fame these days.

  • socali

    Wow. This is a new low in America. My mind can’t even comprehend why this soulless “man” can come out and write something so cold. These parents are grieving for godsake. It hasn’t even been 3 weeks.

    • rlion

      It has only been a week. The shootings happened Friday May 23.

      • snokb04

        Yea, but it’s only been a week and the gun control lobbyists are already using it for THEIR political chess maneuvers. That’s one of his points if you actually read the whole thing. It’s okay for THEM to use this tragedy to further THEIR political agendas because YOU agree with their views…so you don’t even see how sick that is too.

        • rlion

          I was merely responding to Socali’s comment “it hasn’t even been 3 weeks” and stating it had only been a week. I have no idea what the rest of your comment even means as I was not responding to anything written by this man.

  • Aj Beamish

    “your dead kids don’t trump my Constitutional rights.

    How about this one conservative douche-nozzles… Your belief in a flying freaking Spaghetti Monster does not trump my rights. PERIOD. How you like ‘dem apples?

    I swear, when it comes to social interaction and responsibility, conservatives are dead inside. ME, ME, ME! That’s all they are about. Which does not bother me, just stop touting all the Jesus bullshit as though it defines you, conservatives are more Anton LeVay than Heal the Sick & Feed the Poor Jesus.

  • Neel

    Joe, your sentiments will have more validity if you come back and say “As harsh as this sounds your dead kids don’t trump my Constitutional rights.” after you have lost someone close to you to a depraved gunman

  • socali

    Lets see how he feels if something similar happened to his kids and a self entitled prick tries to talk about constitutional rights when he is grieving.

  • Lindsay Schramm

    You’re a disgrace.

  • mikemazzla

    This pretty much encapsulates why the rt is so out of touch and a dying breed. Thanks Joe for showing what a Fng D bag loser you are

  • Jon

    If there were any “extremists” to the Left, guys like “Joe the Plumber” and the Westborough Baptist Church would’ve been put out of their misery years ago. If it was my son or daughter who was killed, and this guy came out publicly calling out my child’s death in vain, I could only suggest he get a restraining order on me. The parents of those young people who were killed in CA are stronger than I am. I would not let that go by with only a verbal response.

    • snokb04

      Interesting since you’re likely on the “gun control” side, so I’m 100% sure you don’t own a gun. So how exactly would you carry out your vengeance? You just proved his point. People don’t need guns to cause harm. Guns did not kill anyone, the PERSON hold it used it as their tool. Oh, and for the record. I’m one of those “Obama voters”. I just happen to believe that people do have the right to bear arms…except for you that is, since you are obviously one of those wackos the gun control crazies scream about.

      • Jon

        I have the legal right to go out and buy a gun, and you can thank the NRA for allowing me this privilege; along with the Congressman of whom they’ve generously contributed to their campaigns.

  • TTHEYOUTHH

    My parents lost my sister in a killing when she was only 14-years-old. The pain and anguish my parents felt is something I can never imagine. Sure, I mourned for my sister and had many nights where I cried myself to sleep because I was so overwhelmed with her death when I was only 10 years old when she died.

    But I’ll hopefully never know the pain of losing a child.

    Joe is heartless. The just lost their children. Everyone needs to give them their own private time to reflect and try and pick up the pieces of their lives.

    These parents didn’t lose a cousin or an aunt, they lost the children they gave birth to.

    Have a little respect for them and the deceased.

  • Bob

    Isn’t the fact that an “insane individual” could obtain firearms that are meant for those who wish to only protect their families, more than enough proof that there needs to be a change in our country’s gun regulation?

  • Benjamin Christopher Ahlbrandt

    All rights are not created equal. If you think your right to a possession is more important than someone else’s right to exist, then you are exactly the type of person who should not own a gun in the first place.

    • Cynthia Reagan

      I regret that I can only like this one time.

  • battlepriest

    What a heartless prlck you are Joe. Go die. Slowly and painfully.

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  • Joseph Girard

    Three of the recent victims were killed using a knife. The killer didn’t need a gun to carry out these sadisitic acts

  • pnllsprkf

    if this puke bothered to really read the 2nd amendment IT DOES NOT GUARANTEE EVERY IDIOT IN TOWN THE RIGHT TO OWN A WEAPON–ONLY THE MILITIA–AND HE’S NOT ONE–BUT HE IS A MAJOR IDIOT

    • Bob

      You are wasting your time. These morons haven’t gotten past “Dick and Jane”. There is NO chance they would understand the 2nd Amendment.

      • pnllsprkf

        THAT is the biggest problem we have–illiteracy

        • Bob

          unsuscribe

    • dogfightwithdogma

      Sadly, we are at present stuck with the Heller decision in which SCOTUS has decided there is an individual right to own weapons.

  • Taylor

    Ok, I am commenting on this bc I feel strongly about it, and I have the ability to express my feelings publicly. Please do not try to drag me into whatever drama **** is going on here. idc about anyones feelings on my post. Nor do I care if you bash it. save your fingers lol. I agree with Joe “the plumber” here. To an extent. He could have sugar coated it just a tad. LIIIIITTTLLLE harsh there bud. BUT that being said he has a very valid point. We cant point the finger at gun laws here. the kid would have got a gun regardless. If more people had them then maybe someone could have shot him before he shot everyone else? idk, no one does, but what I do know is people seem to point fingers at “gun control” when its not the gun shooting itself. Now Mr. Joe the plumber proooobably could have said that in a nicer more compassionate way, but that’s how he feels and that’s what he said. Who are we to judge? Feel free to comment on this and call me whatever you like but just know. your an idiot if you think anyone cares what you have to say on a blog lol. Have a good weekend folks.

  • damanifesto .

    A guy who can call a spade ‘a spade’…America needs for people like Joe.

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  • Shane Poirier

    It is comments like these and laws like those that make me happy I am Canadian. We`re pretty cold down here, but we`re not runnin around thumpin bibles and blasting guns….and whining about rights that are wrong.

  • Gwen

    AMEN BROTHER!!!! The last time I checked, my gun did not get up out of the closet and go to a public place and shoot randomly. Guns don’t kill people, people kill people. And as long as there are people, there will be random killing sprees, unfortunately, and there’s nothing we can do to change that fact. DO NOT STOMP ON MY RIGHTS BECAUSE SOMEONE ON THIS PLANET IS MENTALLY UNSTABLE.

    Like Joe the Plumber stated: “As a father, husband and a man, it is my responsibility to protect my family. I will stand up for that right vehemently.”

    I agree wholeheartedly. Once our government is allowed to take away a fraction of one of our rights, it opens the door to restrict, restrict and restrict until we have no rights left at all!

    This is not about guns, it is about OUR CONSTITUTIONAL RIGHTS!

    There is not a person anywhere who should be allowed to take away or restrict the rights given to me, earned by the men and women who fought hard before me. The are still earned to this day by the people who maintain the vigilance required to protect these earned rights, people like Joe!

    God bless you brother and keep speaking up! We need more people like you to call it like it is and put the BS to rest.

  • Teri

    Constitutional rights are not absolute .. they are interpreted by the courts, and in some cases are limited when they present a risk to others. (i.e. free speech is limited in several areas: slander, libel, yelling “fire” in a crowded movie theatre). The right to bear arms is, as it stands in the constitution, intended for legally formed state militia, but even allowing that it perhaps could be an individual right to have arms, the nature of the arms one can have is limited, as well as your right to bear arms if you are considered a threat. Some of us can see that some types of arms present a bigger risk than they mediate. It is ridiculous that this country cannot find a way to deal with these issues, and that people will not step up to the table, spurred on by the extreme positions of a few represented by a powerful bully — the NRA.

  • The7Sticks

    Joe, as an advocate for the second amendment, I believe there’s a time and a place to defend that right, and this is NOT one of those times or places. You are actually doing more harm for the cause of gun rights by coming out with this bizarre choice of phrase, thereby giving anti-gun advocates a clear target (excuse the pun) to inflict their anger upon. In other words, YOU are your own worst enemy.

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  • Cynthia Reagan

    Wow, Joe. I used to have so much respect for you, even after I learned that you weren’t really a plumber, that the story you told President Obama about buying that plumbing business was not really true, and that you claim to despise government while availing yourself of as much government aid as possible. I still believed in you. Even after learning that you didn’t pay all your taxes, and that your solution to illegal immigration was to “go to Mexico and start shooting,” I still looked up to you. But now I’m beginning to suspect you might be a douchebag. Darn.

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  • Lisa

    Your right to be an angry obsessed nutjob doesn’t trump the childrens’ right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness!

  • Uninterested Inyouropinion

    Who even cares what “Joe the Plumber” says? Accidental celebrity, never did a damn thing for this country. Shut up and go fix a leak.

    • Cynthia Reagan

      He can’t fix a leak, because he does not possess a plumbers license. True.

  • RamboJohnJ

    He didn’t earn that nickname Joe the Dumber by accident..

  • talkstoomuchtoo

    There is a God. And there is a hell. And you will do a slow roast in hell for your ill-timed, disrespectful, ghoulish tirade. You will be rememberd – not for your ability to stretch out your fifteen minutes of fame but for the words- “your dead kids don’t trump my Constitutional rights.”

  • donawyo

    I agree with you. Thank you for your article. Also, let’s pray for comfort for Elliot’s parents. Their son was once a precious little boy. They are grieving now too. And they have the added burden of seeing how much pain their child caused. May God comfort everyone involved in this horrific act.

  • concerned citizen

    ok this was horrible, but i have to say i also feel for the KID that did this awful act, how come no one came to save him!!!!! he and all would of been saved from this horrible act if someone in the force would of not wrote this off…… i feel for all is all i’m saying, and now days these kids do not have there parents to raise them, it takes two parents to work today to take care of there kids and while they work who is raising them. just like sandy hook that Kid was on his own also.. and who did he blame of course his mother omg god rest her soul but no one knows what really happened there. anyother child lost becasue of overworked parents, and who fault is that………………..when will people see what is going on in this would and finally do something about it… pay attention to your children and fix the problems no matter what it takes.. and law enforcement do your friggin job and quite thinking nothings wrong!!!!!!!!!!!!

  • concerned citizen

    let me explain a little more on what i am talking about. we are teaching our kids nothing in life today. bully” thats the word, kids can be so mean and push them over the edge. doesn’t anyone see this, both of those kids were bullied being call geeks and freaks, what the heck really. that to me is being pushed over the edge. and with no one there to pick up there pieces. this has nothing to do with gun control, in fact the kid in santa barbra didn’t only use a gun he used a knife in his killings, the law was told by his parents there was something wrong and they did nothing costing all of them their lives..

  • hal

    Joe Wurzelbacher spoke the truth. Losing a child, or anyone to violence is tragic. But it was the gun that helped create this nation, and its use has kept us free from enslavement. both from enemy powers, or at the hands of government tyranny. Government is supposed to do the work and solve the problems too big for an individual. Government, in the case of guns in the hands of the mentally deranged has failed us. And why no outcry about the Obama regime opening the prison doors and letting out thousands of rapists and murderers, because illegal aliens have “rights.” ? Or previous administrations opening the doors of the nations mental institutions and allowing psychopaths to live in society able to do harm to others, under the guise that the institutionalized had “rights.” I contend that it the doctrine and make up of those in the category of socialists and progressives that are the root cause for current day murderous events perpetrated by mentally unbalanced killers. These are the same people that today, demand that my constitutional rights are infringed, in order to theoretically solve a problem that those of their ideological persuasion created decades ago. Todays anti-gun crowd, including the Obama regime proposes solutions that harm the law abiding and constitutional rights of the many in quick fixes and politically expedient methods that will never keep firearms out of the hands of criminals, gangs, and mentally deranged killers. Quick politically expedient fixes are for re-election campaigns, and will not solve this societal problem. Unless the mentally sick are identified early, and provided necessary treatment and monitoring or institutionalized, these people will continue to murder. You say the gun is the root cause of all killings, so by eliminating the gun from the equation you solve the many types of gun related murders ? That works, and so we can eliminate the car, medicinal drugs, power tools, sky diving, and any other activity that causes inadvertent death, or any death. Medical errors also kill millions, so shall we ban doctors ? I know these words will instill hatred in some. and cause others to nod in agreement. One thing is certain, and there is plenty of statistical evidence to support this-That as long as 2 or more men has occupied planet Earth, before guns and knives there has been murder. Rocks and sticks were the first tools used to kill. I think that’s the place to start your analysis in solving this multi million year human condition.

  • Dr. B

    Wurzelbacher like all the gun extremists misses the point. Nobody is out to take guns from law abiding citizens. The right to bear arms is enshrined in the Constitution, that’s understood, but no right is absolute, SCOTUS has ruled about this, and this Country has a big gun violence problem, bigger here than in any other industrialized Country, and finding a way to keep the guns out of the hands of people who should not have them is not an attack on Constitutional rights. An advanced, sane society should be able to find a balanced way to do this without trampling on the rights of its citizens.

    Opposing even the most obvious common sense measures to keep criminals and crazies to legally obtain guns is irrational. The right likes to present its knee jerk reaction to any discussion on guns as an heroic defense of the Constitution, it’s nothing of the sort, it’s just idiotic. Martinez does have a point, politicians have failed to act out of cowardice and He is right to call them out. We do have a problem, a big one and We have to find a way to fix it. It is the right thing to do for citizens, specially the father of a victim of gun violence, to demand action.

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  • Julius Johnson

    Why does he want bear arms? And why does he think he has the right to them?

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  • Chandramohan Reddy

    How would defend your kids if there is a shooting at school? How would you defend your family if there is a shooting at cinema? How would you defend your family at a shopping mall if there is a gun wielding psycho going on a shooting rampage? Step back and think about what kind of protection guns you have, really provide your family..

    How many incidents do we read of murderers attacking homes specifically to justify your “self defense and protect my family” reasoning. Think about it.

    • Cynthia Reagan

      I have thought about it, and I have concluded that we have a problem with people like you being paranoid and carrying guns.

      • Chandramohan Reddy

        Well, i guess, i was ambivalent and didnt state my position correctly.. In short, what i wanted to convey was, it is not possible to carry guns everywhere to “defend” and its better let go of the guns and the need for “self defense” reduces significantly as there are fewer guns..

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  • spudfry

    Dear Editor,
    An idiot with a cause is a dangerous thing – please don’t encourage them by publishing their ego driven, ill-timed & ill considered thoughts.

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  • cipher

    Sam Wurzelbacher? That’s the best you lunatics can do?

    Utterly pathetic.

  • Running Welder

    As much as I support the right to own a gun I also am behind the push for gun control and to keep guns out of the hands of those with mental illnesses that are prone to violent reactions. What I will not support in any way shape or form is the mental illness of people like Samuel Wurzelbacher who claims to love his children and cares for all kids but publicly states that the deaths of children at the hands of a gun wielding madman are not as important as his right to own a gun. Samuel like so many gun rights activists and the NRA only hear one thing ” you’re going to have your guns and rights taken away ” not what is actually being said which is ” we the American people want to prevent the mentally ill and the criminal elements from getting access to firearms to prevent anymore children from being used as defenseless targets who can’t protect themselves”. Its this thinking or lack of depending on how you view it that repeatedly makes me question the mental health of people like Samuel Wurzelbacher and lean more heavily towards a mandatory mental evaluation for anyone wishing to own a firearm.

  • Mike

    clearly the “plumber” is leaking IQ points…

  • Mike

    every childs right to life trumps my right to my guns, if you break it down honestly

  • Derrick Hayes

    Looking through that window at I.V. Market Deli and seeing the horrors of that night. Joe the “Plummer” you are so wrong. I thought I would remain silent but you have allot of nerve and have no honor. Those were all good kids. I’m still grieving like most here at UCSB. It is people like you that make me realize that Mr. Martinez is very right, “Not one more”. I speak for a growing community that values life more than the ideological rhetoric you worship. We need more gun control, and more love and empathy for the victims and their families.
    -Derrick Hayes UCSB student.

  • Lynette Carothers

    The part I most agree with is that “Joe” correctly announces to the world that the gun grabbers really do NOT care about these parents children. They only see them as photo ops and media bites to further their agenda. So – yes, I totally agree with his statement that they do not care about the children – they may appear to – but their appearance is deceiving – it is only to further their agenda to take by right to bear arms away from me. I have been stating this since the 1st shootings started – photos ops and media bites. They began with Jim Brady and continue to this day. Sad, these parents really believe that they (the gun grabbers) care, when all they are to them is fresh publicity.

    • Robert Riversong

      Are you willfully blind or just suckered by NRA propaganda and right wing idiocy?

      • Lynette Carothers

        Robert – I further believe in “freedom of speech” – and stand by my comment. No amount of baiting by a Kool-Aid liberal will make me stop believing our rights to state what we believe. So – say what is your constitutional right, and so will I – Joe is correct, the left will only use this man as a media circus then they will be gone.

        • Robert Riversong

          As I’ve never been a liberal, and the gun control issue crosses the entire political spectrum, you are obviously – like the liar Joe (who was never a plumber nor a small business owner) – just another right wing ignoramus who wouldn’t recognize the Constitution if it hit you upside the head.

          If you were even a true conservative, you would support the belief and practice of the Founding Fathers in gun control so extensive that the NRA today would brand them as traitors.

          “The founding fathers instituted gun control laws so intrusive that no self-respecting member of today’s N.R.A. board of directors would support them. Early Americans denied the right to gun ownership even to law-abiding people if they failed a political test of loyalty to the Revolution. The founders also declared that free white men were members of the militia and, as such, were forced to appear with their guns at public ‘musters’ where government officials would inspect the weapons and register them on public rolls. When pressing public necessity demanded it, the founding fathers were also willing to impress guns from law abiding citizens, even if those citizens were left without guns to defend themselves from a criminal attack.” – Gun Fight, by Adam Winkler

          The most common gun law of late 1800s America was a ban on concealed firearms. According to gun rights historian Clayton Cramer, concealed carry prohibitions were among the earliest types of gun control laws adopted in the years following the Revolution. The first such law was adopted in Kentucky and Louisiana in 1813, Indiana banned concealed carry in 1820, Tennessee and Virginia in 1838, Alabama in 1839, and Ohio in 1859. The South, in fact, led the nation in gun control laws, but there was no reference to race and they applied to everyone.

          Though most of the laws regulated concealed carry, several states with constitutional protections for gun rights – including Texas, Florida, and Oklahoma – restricted or banned open carry, too. Only Idaho’s ban on open carry was ruled unconstitutional in 1902.

          Bans on concealed carry spread to the frontier. In 1887, Montana banned the concealed carry of any “deadly weapon” within city limits, including pistols, daggers, slingshots and brass knuckles. Violators received six months in jail or a hefty fine. In 1890, Oklahoma passed an even broader law that applied throughout the territory, and made it unlawful for all except law enforcement personnel “to carry concealed or on or about his person, saddle, saddle bags, any pistol, revolver, bowie knife, dirk, dagger, slung-shot, sword cane, spear, metal knuckles, or any other kind of knife or instrument manufactured or sold for the purpose of defense”.

          This kind of gun control was sufficiently widespread that the Washington State Supreme Court could write in 1907, “Nearly all states have enacted laws prohibiting the carrying of concealed weapons”.

          Frontier towns – like Tombstone, Deadwood, and Dodge – actually had the most restrictive gun control laws in the nation, completely banning the open or concealed carry of firearms.

          • Lynette Carothers

            How did we get to your essay from a comment concerning the abuse of the victims families of a shooting being used by the liberals as fodder for their agenda? This is what is wrong with normal discussions – take it way off track so that the original topic is no longer even remotely connected. Frontier towns vs. Mr. Martinez – sorry – you are not in the ball park of this “open-letter” that was published for discussion. You have taken off on a tangent that no longer resembles the original post.

          • Robert Riversong

            In other words, you’re not interested in the REAL constitutional history of America, but only in the fictions and propaganda of the NRA and wing-nuts like Joe.

            You can bring up “constitutional rights” but duck and cover when a REAL discussion of the Constitution gets thrown back at you.

          • Dana King

            Hey Bobby, let me teach you something. The existence of a law does not create the constitutionality of that law. The govt usurping a power not delegated to it in the US Constitution does not create the constitutionality of it. Operating under usurped unconstitutional power for many years still does not create the constitutionality of it. What it does do is illustrate that judges and elected officials are corrupt and have been operating unconstitutionally for years and that you’re too stupid to know it. Another inconvenient truth for you anti-liberty anti-American statist regressive’s.

          • Robert Riversong

            In other words, the actual language of the Constitution, statements from the Framers during ratification, constitutional history, and a century and a half of supreme court interpretations are ALL WRONG merely because they undermine your ignorant certainties.

          • Americanitis!

            Facts NEVER sway Wingnuts. Don’t waste your time.

          • Dana King

            What’s the matter, Bobby? Why did you delete your assertion that your left wing, regressive, communist, statist democrat interpretation of the US Constitution is the correct one? Hmm? Even YOU couldn’t stand to read your own BS? LOL

          • Lynette Carothers

            No “duck and cover ” here – I stand by my comment that these parents are being used as “fodder” for the liberal media. Personally I have more important things to do than get on my soap box for your what appears to be an ongoing conservative vs. liberal diatribe. Your sandbox is a bit confining to my playground and I am tired of the sand. If I wanted a “real” discussion about the constitution I would certainly pick another venue. This particular sandbox started as a discussion on what liberals do to the families of victims – and their misuse and abuse, not a cut and paste novella on your beliefs. You certainly have the right to continue your tirade, I just choose to end playtime now.

          • Robert Riversong

            Your sandbox metaphor is perfect, because you’ve been acting like an ignorant and petulant child, willfully ignoring facts, history and logic.

          • Lynette Carothers

            You will not stop, just cannot help yourself. I have one last comment – I am done with you and you OFF TRACK discussion. Have a great day.

          • Robert Riversong

            …says the woman who continues to post after claiming to be finished, and never has anything intelligent to offer.

          • Americanitis!

            Also appropriate, considering what cats do in sandboxes.

            Too bad we can’t bury Wingnuts in like fashion afterward.

          • Dana King

            Hey s41t for brains. Point to the section in the US Constitution which gives the govt the POWER to regulate or control guns in any way shape or form. It doesn’t exist you nutjob. And BTW, even if the 2A didn’t say or mean what it is written there is still this little thing called the 9A. That should cover any confusion for you since you obviously have zero grasp of the US Constitution. The nerve of you regressive statist democrats.

          • Robert Riversong

            Even the current radical activist right-wing Supreme Court majority, which invented a wholly new “right” to individual gun ownership, had to make clear in their ruling that gun control is perfectly constitutional:

            “Like most rights, the Second Amendment right is not unlimited. It is not a right to keep and carry any weapon whatsoever in any manner whatsoever and for whatever purpose…Nothing in our opinion should be taken to cast doubt on longstanding prohibitions on the possession of firearms by felons and the mentally ill, or laws forbidding the carrying of firearms in sensitive places such as schools and government buildings, or laws imposing conditions on the commercial sale of arms.” – District of Columbia v. Heller (2008)

            In more than 200 gun control rulings since Heller, lower courts have affirmed the constitutionality of gun control.

            Individual Right Fallacy

            To “bear arms” comes from the Latin “arma ferre“, which means to carry military weapons into battle. To “keep arms” meant to stock them in armories. And “the people” referred to the collective population, not to individuals. The Framers clearly understood the use of these terms.

            “In late-eighteenth-century parlance, bearing arms was a term of art with an obvious military and legal connotation. … As a review of the Library of Congress’s data base of congressional proceedings in the revolutionary and early national periods reveals, the thirty uses of ‘bear arms’ and ‘bearing arms’ in bills, statutes, and debates of the Continental, Confederation, and United States’ Congresses between 1774 and 1821 invariably occur in a context exclusively focused on the army or the militia.”H. Richard Uviller & William G Merkel, The Militia and the Right to Arms, Or, How the second Amendment Fell Silent

            Sir William Blackstone (author of Commentaries on the Laws of England) wrote in the eighteenth century, at a time when there were no police or forces of law enforcement, about the right to have arms being auxiliary to the “natural right of resistance and self-preservation”, but conceded that the right was subject to their suitability and allowance by law:

            “The fifth and last auxiliary right of the subject, that I shall at present mention, is that of having arms for their defence, suitable to their condition and degree, and such as are allowed by law. Which is also declared by the same statute and is indeed a public allowance, under due restrictions, of the natural right of resistance and self-preservation, when the sanctions of society and laws are found insufficient to restrain the violence of oppression.”

            The term “the people” was understood by the Framers as a collective noun, while “person” was an individual noun. “Person” is used only in the fourth and fifth amendments (unreasonable search & seizure and due process), while “the People” is used in the first, second, fourth, ninth and tenth. And the fourth clearly differentiates between “the People” and “persons”: “The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects…”

            The right to bear arms was not reserved for the state, but rather was an individual and personal right for arms only to the extent needed to maintain a well regulated militia to support the state. A militia recognizable to the framers of the Constitution has ceased to exist in the United States resulting from deliberate Congressional legislation and also societal neglect; nonetheless, “Technically, all males aged seventeen to forty-five are members of the unorganized militia, but that status has no practical legal significance.” – H. Richard Uviller & William G Merkel (2003), The Militia and the Right to Arms, Or, How the second Amendment Fell Silent

            “From the text as well as a fair understanding of the contemporary ethic regarding arms and liberty, it seems to us overwhelmingly evident that the principal purpose of the Amendment was to secure a personal, individual entitlement to the possession and use of arms. We cannot, however, (as the individual rights contingent generally does) disregard entirely the first part of the text proclaiming a well regulated militia necessary to the security of a free state.”

            “…we understand the Second Amendment as though it read: “Inasmuch as and so long as a well regulated Militia shall be necessary to the security of a free state and so long as privately held arms shall be essential to the maintenance thereof, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.” “…to us, the language of the Amendment cannot support a right to personal weaponry independent of the social value of a regulated organization of armed citizens.”

            “The amendment thus guarantees a right to arms only within the context of a militia, not an individual right to arms for self-defense or hunting.”David H. Williams (2003), The Mythic Meanings of the Second Amendment: Taming Political Violence In a Constitutional Republic

            In 1991, Warren E. Burger, the conservative chief justice of the Supreme Court, was interviewed on the MacNeil/Lehrer NewsHour about the meaning of the Second Amendment’s “right to keep and bear arms.” Burger answered that the Second Amendment “has been the subject of one of the greatest pieces of fraud – I repeat the word ‘fraud’ – on the American public by special interest groups that I have ever seen in my lifetime.” In a speech in 1992, Burger declared that “the Second Amendment doesn’t guarantee the right to have firearms at all”. In his view, the purpose of the Second Amendment was “to ensure that the ‘state armies’ – ‘the militia’ – would be maintained for the defense of the state.”

            In the Heller decision, the centerpiece of the Court’s textual argument is its insistence that the words “the people” as used in the Second Amendment must have the same meaning, and protect the same class of individuals, as when they are used in the First and Fourth Amendments. According to the Court, in all three provisions – as well as the Constitution’s preamble, section 2 of Article I, and the Tenth Amendment – “the term unambiguously refers to all members of the political community, not an unspecified subset”… But the Court itself reads the Second Amendment to protect a “subset” significantly narrower than the class of persons protected by the First and Fourth Amendments; …the Court limits the protected class to “law-abiding, responsible citizens”.

            Justice Stevens’ dissent to Heller, joined by Justice Souter, Justice Ginsburg, and Justice Breyer:
            “No new evidence has surfaced since 1980 supporting the view that the Amendment was intended to curtail the power of Congress to regulate civilian use or misuse of weapons. Indeed, a review of the drafting history of the Amendment demonstrates that its Framers rejected proposals that would have broadened its coverage to include such uses… Unable to point to any such evidence, the Court stakes its holding on a strained and unpersuasive reading of the Amendment’s text…”

            “The Court also overlooks the significance of the way the Framers used the phrase “the people” in these constitutional provisions. In the First Amendment, no words define the class of individuals entitled to speak, to publish, or to worship. These rights contemplate collective action. While the right peaceably to assemble protects the individual rights of those persons participating in the assembly, its concern is with action engaged in by members of a group, rather than any single individual.”

            “Similarly, the words “the people” in the Second Amendment refer back to the object announced in the Amendment’s preamble. They remind us that it is the collective action of individuals having a duty to serve in the militia that the text directly protects and, perhaps more importantly, that the ultimate purpose of the Amendment was to protect the States’ share of the divided sovereignty created by the Constitution.”

            “As used in the Fourth Amendment, “the people” describes the class of persons protected from unreasonable searches and seizures by Government officials [and] describes a right that need not be exercised in any collective sense [but] the Fourth Amendment describes a right against governmental interference rather than an affirmative right to engage in protected conduct.”

            “This thin reed of gun rights has only existed since 2010. In the 2010 McDonald v. Chicago case, the activist US Supreme Court reversed 142 years of precedent to extend the meaning of the 14th Amendment to prohibit states from prohibiting guns. It did so by a 5-4 margin. In other words, the nationwide Constitutional protection for gun ownership only came into existence in 2010 (not 1791) and even then by one single vote. So much for the everlasting, inalienable right to own a gun.”Salvatore Babones, associate fellow at the Institute for Policy Studies in Washington, DC.

          • Dana King

            Bobby dear, the federal government DOES NOT have the power to define their own power. If they did then there would be ZERO reason to have a written constitution with specific LIMITED ‘GRANTED’ powers. I guess English is not your strong suit. Neither is critical thinking.

          • Robert Riversong

            The Supreme Court is granted that power by the Constitution, but in your abject ignorance you pretend otherwise.

          • Dana King

            No, SCOTUS is not granted that power you nutjob, SCOTUS has unconstitutionally asserted that power. It is abject idiocy to state on one hand that we have a constitution, which states what powers are granted to the feds, and then on the other hand say that the constitution doesn’t really matter because we can just change the meanings of words, ignore words, or just make up stuff as we go. That’s absurd.

          • Americanitis!

            “Well-regulated militia..”

            That part, you illiterate home-schooled child-killing accomplice.

          • Luke

            Very respectful discourse. I believe your panic is showing.

      • Dana King

        Are you willfully a shill and useful idiot? Apparently so.

      • Luke

        It is often easiest to determine who is trying to trick you by figuring out who has the most to profit with the trickery. It also helps to apply Occam’s Razor.

        That said, in this case we have the NRA, who represents mostly gun and ammunition manufacturers and dealers. (Evidenced by publicly available funding data.) So in short, when more guns and ammo are sold, this group makes more money.

        On the other end, we have a group who would like for fewer guns to be in circulation in order that fewer people die. (At least by their theory.) There is no financial victory here. They do not get paid for every gun not sold.

        So then we’re left with the explanation that the opposition to the NRA is hell-bent on completely disarming all good people of the world in order to bring about a dystopian future ruled by tyrants.

        Of the three, one requires no assumptions and is purely logical. They want no gun regulations because they make money by selling guns. Fantastic. But no. I would also like to drive 120 miles per hour everywhere I go, but alas, tyrannical regulations prevent me from doing so.

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  • Robert Riversong

    Joe the “Plumber” (who is not a plumber but a liar) represents the worst face of humanity and evidences a sickness deeper than that shown by Elliot Rodger, who managed to turn his pain and anger into only six deaths, while Joe and his NRA extremists are responsible for tens of thousands.

    For more, Google “How the National Rifle Association evolved from a Shooting Club to a Terrorist Organization” (I’d post the link but that puts my comment in “moderation”)

    • Dana King

      Hey Bobby, your rhetoric is old, transparent and beyond pathetic. Don’t you anti-liberty, anti-freedom, anti-American regressive statist democrats have anything new in your little bag of insults?

      • Robert Riversong

        Yet another willful idiot who hides from the truth in order to sustain illusions and wanton ignorance.

        • Dana King

          Rhetoric and name calling is not an argument, Bobby. Maybe to the simpletons such as yourself.

          • Robert Riversong

            “When I was at the NRA, we said very specifically, ‘We do not represent the firearm industry’,” says Richard Feldman, a longtime gun lobbyist who left the NRA in 1991 and is now CEO of the Independent Firearms Owners Association. “We represent gun owners. End of story.” But in the NRA’s more recent history, he says, “They have really gone after the gun industry.” Feldman now calls the NRA a “cynical, mercenary political cult….obsessed with wielding power while relentlessly squeezing contributions from its members… The NRA leadership undermines commonsense solutions that would protect gun-owners’ rights while reducing accidental shootings and gun violence.”

            At the time of the NRA-supported passage of the National Firearms Act of 1934 and the Federal Firearms Act of 1938, NRA president Karl T. Frederick (known as “the best shot in America” – a title he earned by winning three gold medals in pistol-shooting at the 1920 Summer Olympic Games) testifying before the Committee on Ways and Means, stated, “I have never believed in the general practice of carrying weapons. I seldom carry one… I do not believe in the general promiscuous toting of guns. I think it should be sharply restricted and only under licenses.” Frederick would write elsewhere, “Preserving the ability of law-abiding people to have guns lies in an enlightened public sentiment and in intelligent legislative action. It is not to be found in the Constitution.”

            After Lee Harvey Oswald bought an Italian military surplus rifle from a mail-order ad in the NRA’s American Rifleman magazine, NRA Executive Vice-President Frankin Orth supported a ban on mail-order sales, saying, “We do not think that any sane American, who calls himself an American, can object to placing into this bill the instrument which killed the president of the United States.”

            NRA Executive Vice President Franklin L. Orth, stated in a Senate Hearing on the Saturday Night Special ban in 1971, “We are for it 100%.”

            The 1970s-era NRA Fact Book on Firearms Control characterized the Second Amendment as being “of limited practical utility” as an argument against gun controls.

          • Dana King

            Wow, cut and paste man. Impressive. Not. LOL

          • Americanitis!

            Truth hurts, eh Wingnut ahole?

      • Americanitis!

        Truth hurts, eh Wingnut?

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  • Americanitis!

    Joe The Plumber: Not named Joe, not a plumber, just another boring, stupid Wingnut liar whose demonstrably false delusions are peddled to unsuspecting rubes in order to make sociopathic rightwing elites obscenely wealthy. Fox, Rush, Beck, Coulter, Malkin, Bill Kristol, West, Cruz, Palin, the Bush crime family, and on and on and on.

    Wingnuts sure are a dumb gullible lot: they’ve been falling for the same nativist nonsense since Ronnie Rayguns’ early-onset dementia. Maybe that’s why the Tard Right loves Reagan so much: he was just as detached from reality as they are.

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  • resetplz

    The second amendment was about keeping a new federal government in check; nothing to do with defense against everyday crime.

    Martinez was ABSOLUTELY RIGHT to blame the proliferation of guns, the greed of the industry and their lobbyists, and the failure of politicians to see and address what Joe The [non-] Plumber doesn’t, or won’t, or can’t.

    This is a country steeped in a mentality of violence, awash in a sea of guns. It is every man for himself, with no sense of seeing the bigger picture in context of a Common Good. It has nothing to do with our constitution and everything to do with our country.

    Guns allow angry/disturbed/depressed/criminal individuals to do 1) more harm to 2) more people in 3) less time. Read that again.

    Nobody is buying this adolescent, macho charade; playing cowboys is for children, not adults. Gun owners, clearly, live in fear and are reacting to it; they don’t like the unknown and must own a gun to feel safe. Fine. But if the only way they know how to engage with the world is through intimidation then we have a shared social problem, because that’s not the country the founders envisioned. Don’t kid yourself.

    I leave my home every day, just like a gun owner does, except I’m not a carrying a tool of death. I understand that crime is a possibility and that I *could* be a victim, and I happily live with that. Because it is trumped by the bigger picture: more guns = more death.

    P.S. The only thing that stops a good guy with a gun is a bad guy with a gun.

  • Christopher Rojas

    What a pos

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  • Mekleo

    way to Brutal dude try some tact….

  • zmanbk

    Thank goodness that someone stood up and said what needed to be said. Bravo Joe the Plumber! You’ve provided incontrovertible evidence of you and your kind’s utter and irredeemable douchebaggery.

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